d112crzy : 1993 Accord LX

[d112crzy]

Just tell me when. I'm down, you guys would just need to send me some money via money gram so I can get my ass over there.

[noobcake]

140 miles isnt tooo far

[d112crzy]

No one said it was. I've travelled across the US, 140 miles ain't shit.

I was referring to gas money.

[noobcake]

you can get here on a tank


or i could go get you and you could tune on the way back

[d112crzy]

Yeah...I have $0. That's why I'd need you guys to wire me some money.

Or you could come here, I don't care. I'd rather go over there that way I could kick it with my peeps.

[noobcake]

haha i really wouldn't want to drive to yak anyway. so, good call

[blackice]

UR underdrive pulley is NOT an upgrade. I'm getting a Euro R style pulley.

i beg to differ. there is a reason for it nagger. besides rotating mass you lose off the stock pulley, rotating your accessories slower will free up horsepower. do some research before you rag on stuff, reminds me of the time you asked me how to test spark plug wire resistance...btw i hope you didn't get shocked too much with that.

[d112crzy]

There's a damn good reason the stock pulley is dampened. I've done plenty of research and have personally seen what undampened crank pulley's do to bearings and crankshaft journals.

Yes, they do free up horsepower, but at the cost of fucking up your crank.

[owequitit]

i beg to differ. there is a reason for it nagger. besides rotating mass you lose off the stock pulley, rotating your accessories slower will free up horsepower. do some research before you rag on stuff, reminds me of the time you asked me how to test spark plug wire resistance...btw i hope you didn't get shocked too much with that.

Turning the accessories slower also causes low RPM issues with the alternator and power steering, not to mention consistent bearing wear issues. Ask Hondafan about it because that either came from Bisi or Larry Widmer, but he was the one that told me about it.

[blackice]

your engine isn't externally balanced, the crank has no counterweights in it and the rubber on the pulley is only substantial enough for ride comfort and noise reduction. a solid crank pulley isn't going to cause issues. hearing you talk about engine harmonics and how a solid crank will cause problems is funny when you don't even like to run balance shafts.

edit: the power steering and alt issues are a whole other issue...worrying about the ps...you can go rig an electric pump like the euro r has, if joser is going with a single row crank from the euro he doesn't have power steering anyway so that argument isn't relevant. with the alternator....you gotta pay to play, its about gains vs wear and tear on the car, a lot of mods will directly or indirectly wear your car out faster. also what are your views on a fluidampr crank pulley in the case of harmonics and bearing wear?

[d112crzy]

balance shafts counteract the vibrations the entire motor puts out. It does nothing to the crank itself. Hence why mosts H/F builds run a balance shaft eliminator kit.

honda engines are indeed internally balanced, but the use of a non weighted/undampened pulley throws the crank off. The pulley dampens vibrations from the crank, which if beat on hard enough, those vibrations WILL fuck up your crank. I know because I've seen it tested by a shop in FL. Not only that, but Bisi also backs that up. There must be truth to it.

It will throw off your bearing clearances, which hurts performance and engine durability.

Why do you think the sell those EXPENSIVE crank dampeners? Surely it is not for comfort or noise reduction, but for performance and reliability.

[F22HB]

I always wondered why those crank pulleys looked cracked like they were a bushing. Wonder how long it takes for them to wear out.

[d112crzy]

Lots of miles.

accordtyper's broke. Now THAT shit was scary.

[blackice]

honda engines are indeed internally balanced, but the use of a non weighted/undampened pulley throws the crank off.

non weighted....there is no "counterweight" on a stock h22 pulley. take a look at the ati and fluidampr pullies btw for dampened pullies. higher horsepower engines will have more issues with engine harmonics. i think we can agree on that but i don't see you pushing much over 220whp n/a.

The format of honda pullies is more of a vibrational dampener for comfort reasons and not a harmonic one for the engine itself. there just isn't enough rubber material in the honda pullies to really do much of anything for dampening harmful harmonics. rubber timing belts do take up some of the slack vs timing chain in the case of a badly balanced crank....one that isn't internally balanced will definitely screw things up.

the balancing of the oem pulley is needed because it is cast iron. casting and cooling time make the pulley weight uneven. look at the notches/knockouts on the pulley....the center of the pulley is usually cast, the ribbed part for the belt is lathed and the rubber in between is to join the two and help dampen the crank pulley if anything besides nvh. the ur pulley and others are internally balanced unlike the generic ebay ones. i will tell you that aluminum resonates longer and higher than iron and a solid one is more susceptible to direct engine vibration.

the information bisi and other tuners provide is relative to race builds, not so much a simple street build. eventually a solid crank pulley could cause issues like any other mod, but it is in no way a sure fire way of spinning bearings or causing oil pump failure like everyone makes it out to be.

[owequitit]

your engine isn't externally balanced, the crank has no counterweights in it and the rubber on the pulley is only substantial enough for ride comfort and noise reduction. a solid crank pulley isn't going to cause issues. hearing you talk about engine harmonics and how a solid crank will cause problems is funny when you don't even like to run balance shafts.

edit: the power steering and alt issues are a whole other issue...worrying about the ps...you can go rig an electric pump like the euro r has, if joser is going with a single row crank from the euro he doesn't have power steering anyway so that argument isn't relevant. with the alternator....you gotta pay to play, its about gains vs wear and tear on the car, a lot of mods will directly or indirectly wear your car out faster. also what are your views on a fluidampr crank pulley in the case of harmonics and bearing wear?

If you are eliminating power steering, then there really is no need to underdrive the accessories, because the alternator doesn't make a significant enough different to matter anyway. That provides a wasted cost to benefit ratio.

And no, the crank isn't externally balanced, but the rotating assembly IS balanced taking that crank pulley into account.

There is a lot more to harmonics other than is something designed specifically to damp harmonics. Everything on that rotating assembly in one way or another affects the harmonics of it.

And no, it wasn't just in relation to race builds. Hondafan kept his stock pulley because of what he specifically learned from those two guys. I am pretty sure the more I think about it that it was Larry Widmer who told him you can specifically tell the difference with even a stock engine that had an unorthodox pulley, because there is uneven main journal bearing wear. If that isn't indicative of harmonic issues, I don't know what is.

Like I said, talk to Hondafan. I know how thorough he is, and he will be able to cite sources, and probably recall the conversation.

And sorry, between Unorthodox who is pushing a product, and Honda tech dudes, vs Bisi and Endyn, I will believe the two guys who build real engines and have actual long term experience.