Im in college and my home is 260 miles away from campus. I would always take a particular highway to travel between the two. The thing is the average speed i always do on the highway is about 95 mph. Traffic on this 2-lane highway, speeds like there is no tommorow. Sometimes I'd feel like the car is kinda floating in the wind and drifts left to right a little bit when the wind really kicks in. Are there any body mods that would actually help me out on this. The car is lowered and uses 205 tires, so that already helped in terms of grip. I just wanna get rid of the "floating on the air" feel cus it's really annoying and feels kinda dangerous. Are there any spoilers that would actually do me good rather than making me look rice?
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RICE COOKA!!
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Thats interesting, im lowered and running same tires, ive actually been quite impressed with the accord at speed upward of 140 km/h, seems like decent downforce. Few things come to mind, tire pressure, shocks(dampening?) and swaybars.
"You've done more threatening prescription drugs..."
"the character of a man can be judged by how he takes his criticism"
"Quoting yourself is like, masturbation" -Starchland -
shocks and springs. get lowered first. then you'll have much better handling at speed. trust me.
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Are you using a camber kit and has the car been aligned? Also how are your bushings doing? If they are stock I'm betting some poly bushings would help at least take a little of the floating feeling away. Strut and sway bars will help stiffen your chassis up some more and give you less body roll like starchland said. Getting a wing (ricer style that is) would most likely make things worse as it's just another thing for the wind to catch. If the wind was coming at you from the front it may give some downforce on the rear of the car....but not when the wind is blowing you off course from the side.Last edited by blackice; 06-14-2006, 07:27 PM.Retired 1990 Accord LX Coupe
Project 240SX
Vouches: Bought from: smseagren83, phatdoughnut, uk - accord, lucid, iamnemo, accord_inspire, 2point6, chopstickz, djcaz_aom, roskoOriginally posted by chillin943anyone kno if i can just make a hot wire for v-tec off the horn??
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The tires are always on the right psi and alignment since i get em free anyways. As for bushings, i'll check it out. RICE COOKA!!
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Bushings for sure... and shocks. If your shocks are crap, you'll have a hard time keeping your wheels on the ground over small bumps at that speed.
Otherwise, get yourself a lip. I like the 94-95 Accord lip... looks nice, and it's a bit lower than the CB7 one. A spoiler, believe it or not, would also help. OEM would do fine, no need for something made by Boeing. If you want to take it a step further, low sideskirts and a rear diffuser would help a great deal as well.
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Originally posted by mondojackal
seriously? NO ones gonna say it????
fine, I'll say it.....
Originally posted by 92DX
READING PWNS J00!!!!
CB7tuner.com Appearance Specialist - PM me with any bodywork questionsComment
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True true,.........if you got a front lip you'll have less air traveling under the car.Originally posted by deevergote
Think about race cars, most of the time the front end is the lowest part of the car because the less air traveling under your car, the less uplift.
"in theory"Comment
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Honestly, you most likely have other issues, as I have experienced extreme stability over very long hauls at very high speeds.
Negative camber is a major contributor to high speed straight line instability.
Like most things, it has it ups and downs. It is great for cornering, but it is bad for straight line stability. I would look at that first. I lowered my car about 2" and have almost 3 degrees of negative camber in the front and 2 in the rear. It made a bit of a difference.
Tires also have a lot to with it. Even though you have a 205 section width, quality/construction will still play a role. I had stock Toyo all seasons on my car at one point and they were great. Then I got a set of Kumhos that were exactly the same size and it got windblown and unstable to a much higher degree.
As far as aerodynamics go, there are only a few things you can do that will help...
Even though aerodynamics is a very complicated topic, and all the items can work for or against each other, I will explain them seperately.
1) A spoiler on the rear deck will destroy or "spoil" a lot of the lift that is created by air passing over the car, much like all of the spoilers that deploy on the top of a jet wing while it is landing. This is the biggest and best thing you can do. Something like a flushmount rear spoiler would work best. This will destroy lift, often reducing total drag, and increasing stability. In most cases you may get an MPG bump too.
A rear wing, such as the OEM one will CANCEL upward lift by creating downward lift. It creates additional drag in the process, which effects top speed/acceleration at high speeds, and effects MPG.
Wings are common for aesthetic reasons, but they also give you more control over total downforce without having to change the entire shape of the car to minimize lift (like Ferrari has the ability to do, because their cars serve one purpose and one purpose only, for a significant price).
2) The second most beneficial thing you can do is prevent airflow under the car is a front lip/ground effects. Since lift is dependent on high pressure under the lifting vessel (the car) and low pressure above, reducing the amount of airflow under the car will lower the pressure under the car, minimizing the effect of the low pressure over the top of the car, and reducing lift.
The best way to do this is with a deeper air dam that sits lower and closer to the ground. Splitters also work, but they require a little more science to get them working properly.
As far as crosswinds go, you can't do a lot about that because you can't really change the surface area of the side of your car. Lowering helps reduce the overall profile, but essentially it is just like a sail... Adding stuff like deeper sideskirts or rocker sills, will increase the sail area, enhancing the effect...
If you are on a closed highway with high side barriers, that may also be a contributing factor because all of the those cars traveling at those speeds are really moving a lot of air. Those barriers can prevent the air from moving freely, trapping the momentum in a small space and causing issues with traffic.
Honestly, I don't think the stuff I mentioned above is your biggest problem. They would become more exaggerated with speed, but at 95MPH, it may still be suspension related. I have been buried on the speedo several times, lowered and not, and it wasn't that much more unstable than at 80MPH,
How far is your car lowered?
What springs? How many miles are on them?
What shocks? How many miles are on them? If they are adjustable, what are the settings?
How much camber/toe do you have?
What tires do you have? How many miles are on those?
What condition are your bushings in?
That is all info that would be helpful to us and to you, because it is more likely that it is one of those.Comment
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yeah, especially when i don't read it.Originally posted by '93accordse
when you use 50 words where 10 will work i just skip stuff.
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you're joking right? the flaps on the trailing edge of a wing creates extra lift so that the aircraft can go slower (think shorter landings) while landing.Originally posted by owequitit
completely the opposite of what you said.Comment
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owequitit is a pilot. I think he knows something about planes...
Anyway, sideskirts do help with undercar airflow. Air gets sucked in the sides underneath the car as it does in the front. The lower the front lip and skirts, the less undercar lift you'll experience. I believe it's the HKS carbon Altezza that has such well designed aerodynamics that it actually sucks itself to the track (and has been banned from many events because it's just too damn sticky!
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I do agree about the suspension issue though. I had a blown shock and bald tires, and there was NO stability. To the point of me driving down the smoothest part of rt295 in NJ (the middle lane) at about 35mph at 7pm because I was so unnerved by the way the car was acting.
Replace your bushings (if you want to go fairly cheap, you can rebuild your front end with ebay parts... armcan is the name of a seller that sells a whole front end rebuild kit for $200 shipped) Replace your tires with something decent. Get a good camber kit. Get a proper alignment. Make sure your shocks are good. If your springs are cheapies, replace them with something of quality. You can find GOOD springs for under $200 easily.
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obviously not..flaps increase lift (they don't decrease/spoil it) so that you don't sacrifice low speed maneuverability.Originally posted by deevergoteComment
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Mondo...I would think that you would know by now that I don't speak from my ass.
You must enjoy being owned, which is good because you are about to get owned again...
I said nothing about flaps.
You can see the wing of a 767 very clearly in the photograph (MOST modern airplane wings are very similar, especially jet airplanes).
The very large, long panels on the right side of the openings in the wing (you know, the ones that are hanging down below the wing) Those are the flaps.
Their purpose is to change the camber (curvature) of the wing, resulting in additional lift and drag, to reduce landing speeds, and increase the approach angle when deployed.
Just an interesting FYI on flaps - for approximately the first half of their travel (1-15 degrees) they increase lift significantly, with a slight increase in drag. For the second half of their travel (15-30 or so degrees) they increase drag substantially with a slight increase in lift...
I could go into the physical differences between plain flaps, slotted flaps and fowler flaps, as well as leading edge flaps and slats, but that is beyond the scope here.
If you look back at the picture, to the left side of the opening in the wing you can very clearly see the spoiler panels that have popped out of the top of the wing... These are what destroys lift. As you can clearly see, they severely disrupt the smooth airflow over the top of the wing, destroying lift.
In the case of airplanes, they are also used as speed brakes, so they lift up to a much higher angle than the spoiler on a car (greatly increasing surface area and thus drag), because the intention is to cause drag on the airplane so that we can slow it down. On a car we just need enough to help destroy the lift over the car, we are not interested in slowing it down using drag, thus the much more subtle angle on a car spoiler.
If we get the angle just right, we can destroy lift and reduce drag (drag is created anytime lift is) on the car. That is why hybid cars use spoilers instead of wings. If you look at The Accord Hybrid, the Civic Hybrid etc etc etc, you will notice the very subtle spoiler on the trunk lids...
How sensitive is lifting airflow over a cambered surface? Let's put it this way. A uniform coating of frost measuring 1/32" thick can destroy the amount of lift produced by 66%...
The draggiest wing you will ever see will have less drag than a 1" wire traveling through the air at the same speed...
The Coefficient of drag on the largest airplane you can think of is a fraction of the most aerodynamic car you can think of...
Deev:
You are absolutely right about the sideskirts too. They will help, and that is one reason that a truly effective aerodynamic package for a car must address all aspects. It is also a fine balancing act because there is always a severe trade off to every decision you make. Windtunnels are like dynos in the respect that it is impossible to really quantify anything without one, although with aerodynamics, the math formulas will get you very very close.
The primary airflow will be from front to back, which is why I ranked the airdam/lip higher than sideskirts. This is born out by the fact that the OEM will usually add a deeper airdam first. But yes the sideskirts would probably be next.Last edited by owequitit; 06-15-2006, 02:13 PM.Comment
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nice explanation...all you had to say was "air brakes" instead of "spoliers that deploy on the top of a jet wing while it is landing."Originally posted by owequititMondo...I would think that you would know by now that I don't speak from my ass.
You must enjoy being owned, which is good because you are about to get owned again...
I said nothing about flaps.
You can see the wing of a 767 very clearly in the photograph (MOST modern airplane wings are very similar, especially jet airplanes).
The very large, long panels on the right side of the openings in the wing (you know, the ones that are hanging down below the wing) Those are the flaps.
Their purpose is to change the camber (curvature) of the wing, resulting in additional lift and drag, to reduce landing speeds, and increase the approach angle when deployed.
Just an interesting FYI on flaps - for approximately the first half of their travel (1-15 degrees) they increase lift significantly, with a slight increase in drag. For the second half of their travel (15-30 or so degrees) they increase drag substantially with a slight increase in lift...
I could go into the physical differences between plain flaps, slotted flaps and fowler flaps, as well as leading edge flaps and slats, but that is beyond the scope here.
If you look back at the picture, to the left side of the opening in the wing you can very clearly see the spoiler panels that have popped out of the top of the wing... These are what destroys lift. As you can clearly see, they severely disrupt the smooth airflow over the top of the wing, destroying lift.
In the case of airplanes, they are also used as speed brakes, so they lift up to a much higher angle than the spoiler on a car (greatly increasing surface area and thus drag), because the intention is to cause drag on the airplane so that we can slow it down. On a car we just need enough to help destroy the lift over the car, we are not interested in slowing it down using drag, thus the much more subtle angle on a car spoiler.
If we get the angle just right, we can destroy lift and reduce drag (drag is created anytime lift is) on the car. That is why hybid cars use spoilers instead of wings. If you look at The Accord Hybrid, the Civic Hybrid etc etc etc, you will notice the very subtle spoiler on the trunk lids...
How sensitive is lifting airflow over a cambered surface? Let's put it this way. A uniform coating of frost measuring 1/32" thick can destroy the amount of lift produced by 66%...
The draggiest wing you will ever see will have less drag than a 1" wire traveling through the air at the same speed...
The Coefficient of drag on the largest airplane you can think of is a fraction of the most aerodynamic car you can think of...
Deev:
You are absolutely right about the sideskirts too. They will help, and that is one reason that a truly effective aerodynamic package for a car must address all aspects. It is also a fine balancing act because there is always a severe trade off to every decision you make. Windtunnels are like dynos in the respect that it is impossible to really quantify anything without one, although with aerodynamics, the math formulas will get you very very close.
The primary airflow will be from front to back, which is why I ranked the airdam/lip higher than sideskirts. This is born out by the fact that the OEM will usually add a deeper airdam first. But yes the sideskirts would probably be next.
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