F23 vs h22

[thepowderblue]

I fingered this was not quiet good enough to be posted under swaps..
I am doing a f23 swap and people here kinda hate on the f23 and they are all for the h22...
Here is what I think about both of the engines.
The f23 makes 170hp with an intake,headers and a chipped ecu. The h22 makes 180hp but you have to rev it alot more to get the power and I dont like to have rev so high to get my power.The h22 has those cylinder sleeve's made out of some fibre crap so they dont last as long and burn oil sooner then the f23 with steel sleeves. (is it worth it to get the extra 10hp to have to rev 2k more?I dont think so.If you do then upgrade the f23 bottom end and rev it higher and het the SAME power as an h22.What do you think???All I am saying is why dose the h22 get all of the cridet when a sohc engine is so close to it and no one see's that.Alot of people say the f23 makes 150hp but thats with the stock economy ecu and if you ran an h22 off of it it would be slow to but its really a 170hp engine.I think people dog on the f series sohc heads but they flow really good.(The bisimoto drag insight runs a F series sohc head)

[Tippey764]

oh noooooooes i have to rev 2k rpm more, too bad its revving faster.

You haven't actually done anything so you can't claim it comes close to it.

And at the end what the hell are you talking about with stock economy ecu on an h22a?

A stock h22a makes 200HP ( crank HP )

A stock f23a1 ( the manual versions engine that doesn't have any ULEV shit ) makes 150hp ( crank HP )

I don't see what you are talking about saying if you added economy ecu to an h22a, they don't make that shit so thats a huge speculation " ohhh hurrrr if they made it slower it would be slower " no shit...

and at the end of the day does it matter what made your car fast? All it matters is how its fast. I don't understand this " originality " factor everything is drawn twords. If you want to be original, do somthing that isn't easy. Anyone can bolt an f23 or h22 in their car and do shit to it, no one will think greater of you because you spent time in something less than when it wasn't any more original/hard than a better swap.

[KB7]

oh wow. the ONLY benefit of having an f23 would be the long stroke and bigger pistons, which equals more torque.

if i still had a 90-93 accord, and was going to consider a sohc vtec swap, i would go with a 94-95 f22b1, it is still obd1, so there are less things to worry about during the swap. in stock, (healthy), form its only 5hp, and 5tq less than f23a1, (non california version). you can easily gain that with an f23 intake manifold swap with prelude h series intake tubing/box.

im just starting to research these sohc vtec motors as i now have a 94 ex, (forced on me). so i have an f22b1. though i have done maintenance on my friend's 98 accord ex, (f23a1)

now i am not sure where you are getting your "ecu tuning' numbers, but your numbers are very generous sounding, considering you are not even mentioning a cam upgrade.

there might be a an oem crank available for swap into an f23 block to allow it to rev higher, but that would mean shortening the stroke. if you shorten the stroke, you will lose torque.

and you do credit bisimoto for his wide use of f-series motors, but he uses f22a series motors in that specific drag car.

the percentage of people on this forum who dog the f-series motors are very very minimal. probably less than 15%, 10 percent are simply misinformed people, and 5 percent have the knowledge and resourses to build fantastic h series motors.

in order to make the same hp of an h22, (which is actually from 185-220 depending on which one you choose) you could probably have purchased 2 h22s, (without turbo). before people dog atr me on that comment, the point i am making is that you seem stuck on the idea that hp is the most important value. it isnt torque is.

now for the cost of an h swap you can almost easily out torque an h22, because that is what the f series motors are all about.

an h22 that is ONLY chipped and tuned, will easily out-perform an f23 that is ONLY chipped and tuned

fiber reinforced sleeves have not been as bad an issue at burning oil since the 3rd gen prelude motors, which is where frm sleeves gained such notoriety. the h22 is a very VERY fine motor and a jdm one with under 50,000 miles on it from h-motors is just as durable as almost any f22/f23 motor out there with 180,000 miles on it.

where are you getting your information from????

as far as a header upgrade: unless you go with a $500+ genuine performance header, a header swap will net you a VERY negligible gains if any at all. it would be more for looks

your enthusiasm and 'loyalty' to the f-series motors is commendable, and perhaps something to be desired, but you are just as misguided as the people who dog on the f22a, because the h22a makes more hp in stock form.

check this thread out, this new member is making about 158 hp at the wheels with a BUILT f22b1 head, on top of a f22a block check out his parts list.

[Charlie Moua]

I'm not going to flame you but.... the 2 that posted before me have great points, which I won't repeat.


I guess all i can say is that you really just have to pick which motor you want. The difference in "stock" applications don't count for anything. It all depends on how much money you will end up investing into the motor.

I'm OG and don't know much about F23... so my OG experiace would say to go with H22 if your going to be dumping good money into custom head work, pistons ect. BUT if your just looking for bolt-ons, then nothing wrong F23 at all.

[deevergote]

Wow... the first post of this thread is almost so terribly uninformed and biased that I almost don't even want to waste my time responding! I didn't bother reading the responses, and I'm sure they'll say exactly what I'm about to say... I just want reply while the WTF is fresh in my mind.


The F23A is not built for performance. At all. The VTEC system works on the intake valves only. It is designed for fuel economy, efficiency, and emissions control. The port design is cramped, and the valvetrain is bulky. The redline is low, as is the compression (in comparison to an H22A.)
The engine makes 150hp in stock form. You can modify ANY engine to make a good deal of power, so throwing things like "headers" on there (not sure what you'd do with the others, since the engine only has one header,.,) is an invalid argument. Believe me... I can find MUCH better 'bolt on' parts for the H22A that will double the amount of added horsepower as anything you throw at an F23A1. There is a legitimate performance aftermarket for the H22A... not so much for the F23A1.
The 150hp (crank) engine puts about 130 to the wheels, as opposed to a stock H22's 165whp. Show me an intake, header, and ECU combo that will make 40whp on an F23A in a usable range, I dare you.

The F23A also only comes in OBD2 cars, therefore a custom tune would be 100% necessary to run one properly... and most custom tunes aren't perfect. NONE are as good as the factory tune. The H22A can be run on an OBD1 P13 ECU. It works correctly. Simply plug it in and go.

The "fiber crap" that the H22's sleeves are made of... the stuff that you clearly have done NO research on at all (ever wonder why it's also the material that the S2000's engine uses? or the NSX's? must be real crap, eh?) is extremely lightweight and strong, therefore the sleeves can be thin. They are very good at dissipating heat. Yes, they do wear over the years, but guess what... the sleeves in that F23A? Yes... they're made of iron, and over the decade+ that they've been used in that engine, they've been subject to a good deal of wear. They will allow oil blowby just as much. the ONLY benefit to the iron sleeves of the F23A is that they are easier to resurface, and they are compatible with aftermarket forged pistons (though I don't think I'd bother with forged internals on stock sleeves... it's kinda halfassing it, if you ask me!)



If you wanted to argue the F22A's performance potential vs the H22A... there would be a bit of ground to stand on. The F22Ax has significantly more potential when you get to extreme builds than the F23A1. However, in terms of driveability at lower power levels... an H22 can remain very streetable well into the low to mid 200hp range, whereas the SOHC engines start to be a bit less "daily driver friendly". I would MUCH prefer a 230whp NA H22A for a street car than a 230whp N/A F23A.







Your entire argument is based on wildly inaccurate and improbable horsepower assumptions. That's like bragging about how rich you'll be as soon as you hit the lottery...

[thepowderblue]

I know the h22 is a faster better higher performance engine the the f23 but All I am saying is the f23 should get more credit then it dose.

[gloryaccordy]

H22a/f20b/h23a Dohc Vtec > H23a1 > F22b Dohc > F22a > F23a > F22b1

[deevergote]

I know the h22 is a faster better higher performance engine the the f23 but All I am saying is the f23 should get more credit then it dose.

You really need to use a browser with a built-in spell-check, my friend.


To be honest, the F23A1 is rarely the subject of discussion on here. The main reason for that is that there are no stock OBD1 ECUs that will run it properly. People have 3 options:
converting to OBD2, which can be very tedious.
Using the P0A from the F22B1, which works, but isn't right.
Getting a custom tune... which can be very expensive if you don't know how to do it yourself... and will still never run as well as a proper OEM tune.

The head is not free-flowing, and cannot really be modified to flow well enough to bother. The bottom end is not made to rev very high (and guess where the power will be made when you modify it? Up high...) The high quality aftermarket for the F23A1 is practically non-existent. The VTEC system, as mentioned earlier, functions for the intake valves only, and is pretty much useless for anything other than saving gas and selling Accords to people who don't know what VTEC means or does.

This is your thread. Your topic. Your argument.
Usually, when people want to defend something, they actually know a bit about that something to present a worthwhile defense.
Let's hear it.

[KB7]

H22a/f20b/h23a Dohc Vtec > H23a1 > F22b Dohc > F22a > F23a > F22b1

Add the f22b2 behind f22b1, it has 2mm smaller valves in its head than f22ax/f22b1.
I wonder how it still makes 130 HP, without butterflies and smaller valves, is it the cam? Or tune.

[deevergote]

I don't have the specs in front of me... but where does the peak power occur?

Smaller valves would allow for a higher flow velocity at a lower RPM (though it'd choke up high.)

[thepowderblue]

I am just saying people love the h22 and hate on the f23.I am not trying to say the f23 is better then the h22 because its not and the f23 is only like 15hp shy when its tuned.When ever I bring up that I am doing a f23 sawp people tallk about it like I am just putting a slow stock accord engine in.It is a stock accord engine but its not that slow And when its done I wont be much slower then someone that just did an h22 swap. Alot of people might argue that is is cheaper to run a h22 and to get the f23 as fast it will cost alot more but that is not true.It is alot cheaper to drop a f23 in with a H series tranny and beef it up then to do a h22 sawp, I am going with the under dog engine and I think it will come out good,shit if I get the money I can pop a turbo on the f23 and get 250hp+ and the f23 is a good engine to boost.
Oh and the f23 makes the most power at 5,700rpm.With the stock ecu at the 5,700 it only makes 150hp and it makes 152 ft·lbf torque at 4,900 rpm.
If you take that then get the ecu tuned right and get a good exhaust system and intake it will make about 170hp at the crank

[gloryaccordy]

I am just saying people love the h22 and hate on the f23.I am not trying to say the f23 is better then the h22 because its not and the f23 is only like 15hp shy when its tuned.When ever I bring up that I am doing a f23 sawp people tallk about it like I am just putting a slow stock accord engine in.

You are

It is a stock accord engine but its not that slow And when its done I wont be much slower then someone that just did an h22 swap.

Yes you will

Alot of people might argue that is is cheaper to run a h22 and to get the f23 as fast it will cost alot more but that is not true.It is alot cheaper to drop a f23 in with a H series tranny and beef it up then to do a h22 sawp, I am going with the under dog engine and I think it will come out good,shit if I get the money I can pop a turbo on the f23 and get 250hp+ and the f23 is a good engine to boost.

Everything in this quote is wrong

To build up an F23 will cost more than an H22A if you're looking to get to the same power level N/A

An H22A OBD1 full swap is like $1800 shipped

H22A tranny alone is a good 700-900, F23A is like 500-600, chipped P28 is another 150. So best case scenario, $1350 for your underdog swap. How do you plan to make 50HP for $450? I/H/E alone is a good $500, a cam + valvesprings is another $700 or so, pistons + rods are like another $800. I don't think you thought this through. I really hope you didn't buy the motor already.

[deevergote]

No better for boost than the F22A.


It IS a slow stock Accord engine. It makes 5hp more than the F22A6 that came in the CB7 back in 1991. It makes slightly more torque thanks to the increased displacement. It flows terribly due to the cramped port design and valve angle.

Yes, you can bolt some parts to it and make it fast. However, show me a quality header for the F23A1. I've never seen a real performance header... just the generic "ebay" garbage that you'll be lucky to get 5hp from.

I actually never see anyone bashing the F23A1 until this thread... because you're making a comparison based on information that you're literally pulling out of your ass. The only negative thing people usually say about the F23A1 is that they have a very difficult time getting it to run correctly... and those things are said by people that actually did it. The main reasons for that are posted above.

Why are you bothering to swap in the F23 anyway? The F22A that came stock in your car offers greater performance potential, and has a much stronger aftermarket.

I can bolt some cheap performance parts to a Ford Escort and get a performance increase... doesn't mean it's worthwhile. To some people, it is... and those people are free to do as they please.



You aren't doing a very good job defending your position. You believe something... defend it. Tell me WHY it's better, other than "people bash it, and I can tune it to make a little bit of power..." I can make that argument for ANY engine. Why is this specific one so much better? Why is it worthwhile to bolt parts to an F23A1 to make power that's not even what a bone-stock H22A would make? You could bolt those same parts to an H22A and add X amount of horsepower to that instead. Toss $500 worth of mediocre parts at a 150hp engine and get 165hp. OR, toss those same mediocre parts at a 200hp engine and get 215. 215>165, no matter how you look at it.
And FYI, the H22 makes 200hp, not 180 (see what I mean about pulling numbers out of your ass? You add 20hp to the F23 and subtract 20hp from the H22A... of course they're going to seem like they're competing head to head!)

I'm not usually so harsh, but at the risk of sounding childish... well... you started it.

[thepowderblue]

Well you dont think it will make 170hp with the stuff I named?It would make at least 165hp and the reason I am doing the swap is because The cb its going in is just a shell and that's how I got it.Its alot better having the f23 with an h23 tranny with only 62k then a stock cb with a f22a with 200k+.

[deevergote]

You didn't name stuff. You named "intake" "header" "tune"...
There is a wide variety of parts to choose from for the first two... both of which are limited to low-end generic parts. The tune depends on who does it... you could lose power, or blow up your engine... unless you know how to tune properly yourself.