almost 4.20!

[deevergote]

I haven't seen the liquor kits. Generally, making your own hard liquor is what can be dangerous. Beer and wine usually have an alcohol content that's low enough that it won't really threaten you.
The kits for liquor probably have detailed instructions, warnings, etc... that make them legal.

Making moonshine in your bathtub, a common practice in the prohibition days, could make you go blind, or kill you on the spot. It's like drinking kerosene.

[wed3k]

garcia vega!!!!!!!!!!!!! lets get blunted. i like getting stoned and doing port work

[GeoffM]

I haven't seen the liquor kits. Generally, making your own hard liquor is what can be dangerous. Beer and wine usually have an alcohol content that's low enough that it won't really threaten you.
The kits for liquor probably have detailed instructions, warnings, etc... that make them legal.

Making moonshine in your bathtub, a common practice in the prohibition days, could make you go blind, or kill you on the spot. It's like drinking kerosene.

How does it make you go blind?
Is it something along the lines of when hard drugs are laced with household cleaners?

[owequitit]

I thought the primary side effect of Alcohol was long term liver damage, and pot was side effect free?
Btw, I'm on the alcohol side of the "argument". Just wanted to see if ^^ that was true.

Nobody is really defending pot based on it's ability to impair you, and not comparing the impairment to that of alcohol (at least if someone in this thread is talking about that, I have chosen to ignore it.)

Alcohol causes liver damage. That is one of the most dangerous side effects of long-term alcohol abuse. Another is that it can be chemically addictive.
Long term marijuana abuse does indeed have some effects on memory (though those effects have been blown out of proportion in most cases, according to studies I read about 7 years ago in college.) If you smoke marijuana regularly, it can do serious damage to your lungs. Occasional smoking will do little damage, because the lungs CAN repair themselves to a certain extent. Consuming marijuana/THC by other methods has considerably less long term negative impact on the body, at least by what research has been done (and there is quite a bit of research being done.) Marijuana has no chemically addictive properties. Any addiction is purely psychological. You may crave it because you like it, but you will not crave it because your body believes you NEED it.

Aside from the negative effects of inhaling smoke, marijuana is less harmful to the body than alcohol.
Does that mean it's good? No. Does that mean that alcohol is good because it's legal? No. That's one reason why the US government attempted to ban alcohol... they just didn't succeed. Plus, alcohol can be EXTREMELY dangerous when not controlled by certain regulations (drinking improperly made moonshine can kill you.)
Marijuana has no need to be government-controlled, because it's a plant. Grown, dried, and consumed. Nobody is going to hurt themselves by growing some weed in their back yard and smoking it themselves.




I'm not a smoker, but I will defend it to a point... simply because it really is NOT as harmful as many people assume. It really should be removed from the "drug" category. While it is a drug, it should be viewed more along the lines of nicotine, caffeine, and alcohol.



I do agree that the impairment is no less of a concern than when drunk. It may not be the same type of impairment, but it still results in a decrease in awareness and response time. Doing anything while drunk OR high that requires focus for the safety of others is a bad idea.

www.ama-assn.org

http://search0.ama-assn.org/search/s...na&database=-1


www.apa.org

http://search.apa.org/search?query=marijuana

http://www.livestrong.com/article/14...-of-marijuana/

http://www.marijuanaaddiction.info/a...-marijuana.htm

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/28

http://www.addictionsearch.com/treat...atment_25.html

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/marijuana.html

More than you could possibly want. You can also try reputable places like WebMD.

Any chemical substance that alters your brain's chemistry has side effects. Period. They are substances that do not occur naturally in your body, and thus alter the way your systems function. Long term, there is much evidence of pot addiction, and all of those links are actual science, not this he said/she said, internet hippy bullshit. The FACT of the matter is that long term chemical alterations of your CNS will affect the way your body works. The younger you start, or the more frequently you use, the more likely you are to be addicted, just like any other chemical that is introduced into your body. Alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, etc are no different. The more/longer you use them, the more likely they are to have a long term effect on your behavior, and thus addicition.

Whether or not it should be regulated is a different topic entirely. Guaranteed that if it were allowed to roam free, you would have EXACTLY the same issues you have with alcohol. Pointing to one wrong does not justify another. Essentially, you would greatly increase the number of issues you have because now you would have people who are high causing accidents (they already do) in addition to the people who think they are OK to drive after drinking.

The fact that there is a large group of people who post crap like this and who get off on getting high is a pretty good indicator that it does indeed affect human behavior.

Not saying I think it should be regulated or not, but that all the people who push the "it has no long term issues" are full of crap.

[EJX_Michael]

Any chemical substance that alters your brain's chemistry has side effects. Period. They are substances that do not occur naturally in your body, and thus alter the way your systems function. Long term, there is much evidence of pot addiction, and all of those links are actual science, not this he said/she said, internet hippy bullshit. The FACT of the matter is that long term chemical alterations of your CNS will affect the way your body works. The younger you start, or the more frequently you use, the more likely you are to be addicted, just like any other chemical that is introduced into your body. Alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, etc are no different. The more/longer you use them, the more likely they are to have a long term effect on your behavior, and thus addicition.

Whether or not it should be regulated is a different topic entirely. Guaranteed that if it were allowed to roam free, you would have EXACTLY the same issues you have with alcohol. Pointing to one wrong does not justify another. Essentially, you would greatly increase the number of issues you have because now you would have people who are high causing accidents (they already do) in addition to the people who think they are OK to drive after drinking.

Not saying I think it should be regulated or not, but that all the people who push the "it has no long term issues" are full of crap.

I agree with the long term effects, older people who have done nothing but smoked their whole lives are definitely "wacked out" compared to other people. I'm talking heavy smoking, like almost every day. Same goes for alcohol though.

I know plenty of older people who have been smoking on and off since they were teenagers and they are perfectly normal.

The fact that there is a large group of people who post crap like this and who get off on getting high is a pretty good indicator that it does indeed affect human behavior.

Do you drink, owequitit?

[owequitit]

I agree with the long term effects, older people who have done nothing but smoked their whole lives are definitely "wacked out" compared to other people. I'm talking heavy smoking, like almost every day. Same goes for alcohol though.

I know plenty of older people who have been smoking on and off since they were teenagers and they are perfectly normal.




Do you drink, owequitit?

I have a beer occasionally. If I drink six in a year that is probably quite a lot. But I am not dillusional about its potential consequences, which is a recurring theme among potheads. I also don't run around the internet posting "it is almost a month until 4:20 man, let's get high" threads. Nor do I put bumper stickers on my car, nor do I spew endlessly about the magical benefits. I also understand that it DOES impair me, and thus I don't work with it, I don't drive with it, and I very rarely have more than one at a time.

I have a grandfather who was an alcoholic, and I have an uncle that has cirrhosis of the liver. I have no desire to walk in their footsteps. I also lost a very close cousin a couple of months ago to a suspected aneurysm. They are still investigating the cause, but he was a heavy drug user when he was younger, which may have played a role. Ehtanol is a poison, plain and simple. When taken in enough quantity, it WILL kill you. I am not dillusional about its effects, which is one reason I don't drink much.

Medical science PROVES time and again that there ARE short and long term side effects of pot use. Addiction can happen (as with any other chemical substance), and it does alter the chemistry of your brain, which long term can have consequences.

See, here is where your arguement begins to fail. You assert that you know plenty of people who smoke pot semi-regularly with no side effects. The problem with that is that research also shows that there are millions of semi-regular drinkers and tobacco smokers also with no notable side effects. I know this because my mom smoked several packs a day for nearly 40 years, and when she went in for heart surgery (a genetic defect completely unrelated to lifestyle), there was no evidence that she had even ever smoked. In fact, the doctor commented on her arteries and veins being pristine on the level of an 18 year old. She had only quit a year prior, and according to her heart surgeon, it was simply amazing because normally at that stage after quitting, there is still some visible lung damage and lots of tar buildup in the arteries. So just because she was an exception, doesn't mean it is the norm.

You apprently make the assumption that because you know some regular smokers with no side effects that it is the norm. The problem with that is that for the literally millions of smokers and drinkers, relatively few develop the full blown symptoms of cronic use. Obviously, the younger you are when you start, or the longer/more frequent you do it, the higher at risk you are. But that is also consistent with pot, which can cause health problems, can cause long term damage and can result in addiction (physical or mental, addiction is addiction). Go ahead and read some of the links I provided. Not only do they not agree with most of the assertions in this thread, but they are supported by REAL science, and not Bob the Pot Hippy internet science. At best, the only problem they have with it in the medical community is that they can't conclusively prove what the exact symptoms/additions are. However, they also assert that doesn't mean they are not there.

For decades, pot users have used all sorts of smoke and mirrors to deny the actual, measureable, repeatable, and factual downsides of the drug they are using.

I am not saying use it or don't. I am saying don't be stupid and pretend there are no issues with using it.

And I will repeat again. Pointing to alcohol as a justification for pot is just stupid. That is like saying "someone stole my car radio, so I should be able to steal theirs." It is flawed logic through and through.

[owequitit]

garcia vega!!!!!!!!!!!!! lets get blunted. i like getting stoned and doing port work

Perhaps this is why you thought it a good idea to remove a rocker assembly to move a timing belt?

How does it make you go blind?
Is it something along the lines of when hard drugs are laced with household cleaners?

Ethanol is a poison. If taken in sufficient quantity, it will jack you up. If you get virtually ANY methanol, you are probably dead.

Due to the lack of control, regulation, etc, moonshine was essentially the equivalent of meth today, with people randomly mixing shit in their bathtubs (drano anyone?) and selling it, only it was a still, and god only knows what else. Prohibition was ended partially because of this fact, partly because of the deaths associated and partly because of the Mob's sphere of influence. Unlike most marijuana rings, the Mob was ruthlessly violent.

Whether or not pot should be legalized is another discussion, but frankly, the government probably could make a shit ton of money by legalizing and then taxing the living crap out of it, like they do with cigarettes and booze.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

http://morsdei.wordpress.com/2009/07/06/ethanol/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2797299/

http://search0.ama-assn.org/search/s...query=+alcohol

Ironically, when we talk about alcohol related deaths, we seem to like to focus on the long term medical effects, not really acknowleding that we lose more people in car accidents to alcoholism than we do to other causes. Why? Because it fucks you up.

[EJX_Michael]

I was going to say something, but I'm done. I'm not typing half a fucking book to get a point we don't even need to argue about.

[toycar]

I was going to say something, but I'm done. I'm not typing half a fucking book to get a point we don't even need to argue about.

I agree. This owequitit guy is too much, but I just cannot help but type this out.



Seriously, man you are off que.

I generally dont enter into discussions of the like, due to people that are so strong mindedly calling someone out, that they themselves dont realize that they are alienating themselves from the actual discussion.


For the sake of arguement, people can get addicted to anything.

Cars, sex, Mcdonalds, Crack, etc...

It happens. I think people that were going to resort to smoking crack, probably had some other things going on that contributed to their situation. I know first hand that yes you can smoke pot every single day, and not have any long term issues.... And as far as Mr. I know everything and am nothing but confrontational(owequitit);


You need to live some life, and realize that your dead fucking wrong, moron.

Repeating some shit you read vs REAL LIFE makes me giggle inside. You really think your right, you really do. Hahahahahahahaahahaha.

You come on so strong, and you have nothing but hearsay and self-proclaimed intellegience to throw around. You really think you know your stuff, and the more lengths you go to prove it the bigger dumb shit you look like.


Hows about we start a debate because its 10:15, and the BK drive thru is going to stop serving breakfast soon.

How many people you think suffer illness from being FAT and OVERWEIGHT due to such rediculous motivations as hershey's chocolate and $1 Mcdouble's. Obesity kills more people then drugs do, so, how fit are you Mr cares too much about shit he knows nothing about. Are you more concerned with the THC in MJ, or the FAT in a whopper? What do you think kills more people in America?


You could make a tangent about anything, and argue that there is valor behind it. That is my point.

You really are trying to seem smart about something that MILLIONS of people dont agree with. And, you are acting like we are discussing something so factual as the color of the sky. Fuck, the last 6 presidents admitted smoking pot. You think they are stupid/incapable?

The fact is, THE FDA DECIDED THERE WAS REASON TO USE MJ AS MEDICINE. IT DOES HAVE BENEFITS, AND TO DATE THE MEDICAL INDUSTRY HASNT COMPLETED ANY RESEARCH INDICATING OTHERWISE.

Thats why its legal in so many states now.

And, to drive MY tangent home;


countries such as spain, the netherlands, deutschland, holland etc... have all legalized the drug, and now treat the idea that people have an addiction as a medical problem. Guess what, they have less use in teens, less overall use among adults, less debt, no law enforcement bill, happier people, and generally speaking this was viewed as a win.


Its people like you, that bring so much attention to the socail aspects of marijuana, that enable the problem to continue. Substance abuse is a medical(psychological) problem, and when treated as such is cureable. Not to mention all the effort you put into the idea that MJ is a drug on the same level as something like heroin, creates the illusion implying the same.

However, common sense tells anyone thats ever gotten high, on the regular otherwise.

[GeoffM]

I agree. This owequitit guy is too much, but I just cannot help but type this out......

He has proof (Links), and he's not directly attacking anyone. That makes his argument credible.

[LadyG]

I generally dont enter into discussions of the like, due to people that are so strong mindedly calling someone out, that they themselves dont realize that they are alienating themselves from the actual discussion.

For the sake of arguement, people can get addicted to anything.

Cars, sex, Mcdonalds, Crack, etc...

Hows about we start a debate because its 10:15, and the BK drive thru is going to stop serving breakfast soon.

How many people you think suffer illness from being FAT and OVERWEIGHT due to such rediculous motivations as hershey's chocolate and $1 Mcdouble's. Obesity kills more people then drugs do, so, how fit are you Mr cares too much about shit he knows nothing about. Are you more concerned with the THC in MJ, or the FAT in a whopper? What do you think kills more people in America?

You could make a tangent about anything, and argue that there is valor behind it. That is my point.

And, you are acting like we are discussing something so factual as the color of the sky. Fuck, the last 6 presidents admitted smoking pot. You think they are stupid/incapable?

The fact is, THE FDA DECIDED THERE WAS REASON TO USE MJ AS MEDICINE. IT DOES HAVE BENEFITS, AND TO DATE THE MEDICAL INDUSTRY HASNT COMPLETED ANY RESEARCH INDICATING OTHERWISE.

Thats why its legal in so many states now.

And, to drive MY tangent home;


countries such as spain, the netherlands, deutschland, holland etc... have all legalized the drug, and now treat the idea that people have an addiction as a medical problem. Guess what, they have less use in teens, less overall use among adults, less debt, no law enforcement bill, happier people, and generally speaking this was viewed as a win.


Its people like you, that bring so much attention to the socail aspects of marijuana, that enable the problem to continue. Substance abuse is a medical(psychological) problem, and when treated as such is cureable. Not to mention all the effort you put into the idea that MJ is a drug on the same level as something like heroin, creates the illusion implying the same.

However, common sense tells anyone thats ever gotten high, on the regular otherwise.

Basically, all the things in red, with the white stuff as a background.
Thanks for typing it, toycar.

And, the synopsis of my report I posted is:

Weed was made illegal as a way to deport "job stealing" Mexican immigrants, and lock up "uppity" blacks. Weed was never made illegal because of the properties of it as a substance, but rather because it was like moonshine. Something the common poor man used, and as a method of control.

I'm not for people choosing to become "stoners", its not what I would want for my own boys. BUT I feel that society should treat it like we treat alcohol. Honestly, I would rather one of my sons end up a stoner than an alcoholic.

[toycar]

That makes his argument credible.

Sure it does, and the fact that the PRESIDENT was a pot smoking college kid makes him inadequate right?

Geoff, I see your sarcasm, and appreciate it.


I just want to point out, that since MJ hasnt been legal, considered medicine or anything of the like for more then 10 years, where does anyone get off speculating about the long term effects in reference to memory, performance and the like? Science didnt start studying the effects of MJ again until it was passed as a medicine about 10 years ago. Actually, it passed about 15 years ago but didnt start actually happening till around 2000.

Sure, you can be impared by MJ, but just because you got blazed the night before does not mean you cannot work the next day, or are all the sudden f-ed up for life. I agree, working while high is a bad idea. BUT, to even try and put MJ and alcohol on the same level in terms of effects is retarded.

People get so drunk, they are stupid and incapable of even sitting upright-sometimes. I cannot believe that anyone would ever consider the effects even remotely similar.

And, to validate some of what that dipshit is saying, the health effects known to smoking marijuana are caused by the carcinogens that you ingest when you LIGHT the bud on fire, its not from the bud. Its from the lighter, and the fire that you start in the bowl. Try smoking with a magnifying glass, its much better and shit lasts waay longer-(Old hippy trick).

Thats why people that smoke for medicinal purposes are required to use a vaporizor, or take THC tablets. Yes, using a lighter can fuck you up. No smoking POT has nothing to do with why your health got shitty, and yes science has proven that time and again. The active ingredients in MJ have nothing to do with any health problems related to ingesting MJ, its all in the way you consume it.

To be clear, I dont smoke pot. I have friends that have smoked since I did(highschool, college, all the way up till marriage really, and I suppose I still do occasionally- LOL), and they are just fine. They smoke everyday. They being 4-5 people, who are probably more active/fit/responsible then just about anyone in this thread talking bad about MJ. I smoked for almost 15 years, every single day without any real issues, and I know lots of other people in the same boat that all laugh at people that think MJ is sooo bad.

[deevergote]

The addictive properties of marijuana are psychological. Yes, it does alter brain chemistry (that's why it works... why all drugs work, even Tylenol...) but it does not create a dependency. A stoner does not experience physical withdrawal symptoms. An alcoholic feels real cravings, just like hunger or thirst, for the drug. The body physically NEEDS a substance when a chemical addiction is present.
Marijuana "addiction" is more of an issue of willpower than anything else. Like being addicted to picking your nose. Yes, it is a pleasurable sensation, but it is not something that your body is going to punish you for if you can't meet that desire.


I'm a psychologist, with an interest in both childhood development and social psychology. It is what I currently hold my degree in, and what I will be earning my doctorate in over the next few years.
I truly believe that the social classification of marijuana is the most dangerous aspect of the substance. It has been branded as illegal. Marijuana use is considered to be deviant behavior.
If you take a look at other forms of deviant behavior... the more removed from "normal" that a certain behavior is, the stronger and more extreme the subculture surrounding it becomes. When a behavior is considered "normal", there is almost no subculture surrounding it.

Marijuana is socially classified as a drug. Using marijuana is "deviant behavior", and is associated with "drug use". I say this in quotes, because drinking a beer or smoking a cigarette are not considered "drug use"... though both of them are no less "drug use" than marijuana use. Marijuana users are "drug users". They are associated more with cocaine users, heroin users, etc... and therefore they are immersed in the "drug user" subculture. THAT is why marijuana is a "gateway drug"... because using it affiliates the user with that deviant subculture. It is absolutely true that a person who smokes a joint at the age of 16 is more likely to try cocaine than a person that drinks a beer at the same age. It has nothing to do with the substance itself, but of the cultural expectations of those people that partake in such activities.
If marijuana were to be removed from the "drug" category, and put in the same category as alcohol and tobacco, it would be much less of a "gateway drug". Granted, consumption of age-restricted substances by anyone underage is always going to be "deviant behavior", but certain things are a bit more expected.

[toycar]

Couldnt agree with you more DEEV', from experience as well as philosophy/point of view


I do think that in some situations, where a childs enviornment is in consideration, the actual thought to be devious is inspired by the real root of the problem.

As in, something else put little johnny in motion to act out, and smoking MJ was what caught his attention by definition as "Acting out" for whatever reason. By now though, hes been breaking windows with rocks, being a bully, maybe abusing the family pet etc... and no one noticed. The desire to "act out" evolves and eventually is introduced to drugs with the idea that being accepted may fill the void they've been feeling. The accepted feeling of course coming from the other participants(people kid got high with) not the MJ.

Its my opinion that the traits of some youth, that act out for reasons stimulated by their enviornment, also get accociated as being a side effect of things like MJ and drinking. I believe that in some scenarios, these people are already going to be bad, and what they are exposed to will dictate how they act out.

Meaning it wasnt the MJ that led them to Crack. It was the empty feeling that they couldnt escape(from whatever set them in motion preceeding drugs), that MJ did nothing for, that led them to Crack.

Whats your take on that?

[owequitit]

I was going to say something, but I'm done. I'm not typing half a fucking book to get a point we don't even need to argue about.

Why? Can't refute it? That is the problem with real actual backed up science. It is hard to argue against. I didn't even type that much. I provided about 6 links.

I didn't actually say shit, my links all did it for me. Now, go make a convincing arguement that the AMA and APA are full of shit and don't know anything about anything. Good luck with that.

That is the problem with fake science, speculation, selective reading and just generally not wanting to believe reality. It is horribly inconvenient when reality strikes fantasy.

I agree. This owequitit guy is too much, but I just cannot help but type this out.



Seriously, man you are off que.

I generally dont enter into discussions of the like, due to people that are so strong mindedly calling someone out, that they themselves dont realize that they are alienating themselves from the actual discussion.


For the sake of arguement, people can get addicted to anything.

Cars, sex, Mcdonalds, Crack, etc...

It happens. I think people that were going to resort to smoking crack, probably had some other things going on that contributed to their situation. I know first hand that yes you can smoke pot every single day, and not have any long term issues.... And as far as Mr. I know everything and am nothing but confrontational(owequitit);


You need to live some life, and realize that your dead fucking wrong, moron.

Repeating some shit you read vs REAL LIFE makes me giggle inside. You really think your right, you really do. Hahahahahahahaahahaha.

You come on so strong, and you have nothing but hearsay and self-proclaimed intellegience to throw around. You really think you know your stuff, and the more lengths you go to prove it the bigger dumb shit you look like.


Hows about we start a debate because its 10:15, and the BK drive thru is going to stop serving breakfast soon.

How many people you think suffer illness from being FAT and OVERWEIGHT due to such rediculous motivations as hershey's chocolate and $1 Mcdouble's. Obesity kills more people then drugs do, so, how fit are you Mr cares too much about shit he knows nothing about. Are you more concerned with the THC in MJ, or the FAT in a whopper? What do you think kills more people in America?


You could make a tangent about anything, and argue that there is valor behind it. That is my point.

You really are trying to seem smart about something that MILLIONS of people dont agree with. And, you are acting like we are discussing something so factual as the color of the sky. Fuck, the last 6 presidents admitted smoking pot. You think they are stupid/incapable?

The fact is, THE FDA DECIDED THERE WAS REASON TO USE MJ AS MEDICINE. IT DOES HAVE BENEFITS, AND TO DATE THE MEDICAL INDUSTRY HASNT COMPLETED ANY RESEARCH INDICATING OTHERWISE.

Thats why its legal in so many states now.

And, to drive MY tangent home;


countries such as spain, the netherlands, deutschland, holland etc... have all legalized the drug, and now treat the idea that people have an addiction as a medical problem. Guess what, they have less use in teens, less overall use among adults, less debt, no law enforcement bill, happier people, and generally speaking this was viewed as a win.


Its people like you, that bring so much attention to the socail aspects of marijuana, that enable the problem to continue. Substance abuse is a medical(psychological) problem, and when treated as such is cureable. Not to mention all the effort you put into the idea that MJ is a drug on the same level as something like heroin, creates the illusion implying the same.

However, common sense tells anyone thats ever gotten high, on the regular otherwise.

Actually, if you would take some time to do some actual research, instead of just attacking me because you don't like my links, you would learn a thing or two.

The first thing you would learn (I know, reading comprehension is really hard these days) is that I didn't say a thing about whether or not you should do pot. That is simply a strawman you are constructing to make your arguement look like it has more merit. Here, you might need these to understand:

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/think/strawman.htm

The FACT (right there in those links I have provided), is that the American Medical Association (made of doctors, for doctors, and by doctors, who do ACTUAL scientific research), has pretty clearly said that the medicinal benefits of MJ are not known conclusively. Therefore, they recommend further research into the subject to try and determine what they are, if any. Everything else is just speculation. Go ahead, don't take my word for it, go ahead and do some actual research on the matter (the link is provided). That is not a ringing endorsement for pot. It is simply a "we don't know." Just because the FDA hasn't outlawed it doesn't mean it is good. How often does a prescription pill get released to the market that kills many people before it is banned? It has happened AT LEAST a dozen times in my life, so you will have to forgive me for not buying the "the government says it is OK, so it is" crap.

Legalization is there simply so they can tax the shit out of it and make money on it. Simple as that. Just like tobacco and alcohol.

1) You apparently should spend as much time practicing comprehension, as you do smoking a blunt. You would probably experience a higher quality of life.

2) Show me where I said that anybody who does it is a degenerate, scum, waste of life, or anything else. All I countered with was the FACT that POT DOES HAVE SIDE EFFECTS. If you can't deal, go cry yourself to sleep. I don't give a shit.

3) Don't tell me what I should do. Had YOU actually gotten out there, YOU would learn that there is a lot more to life the illicit drugs. You accuse me of not living life, but I simply do it in a different way. First, I can get fired if I smoke anything, and I love what I do, so that isn't an option for me. Second, try something really awe inspiring sometime. Like racing a car, flying aerobatics, hiking to the top of a mountain where you can see hundreds of miles. To even INSINUATE that I don't know how to live life because I am not a druggie makes you look like a complete fucking tool.

He has proof (Links), and he's not directly attacking anyone. That makes his argument credible.

This is very typical and I am used to it. This is what are known as defense mechanisms. They ultimately know I am right (I didn't even say anything, the scientific community did), and they can't deal with their construct of reality being challenged, so they attack me personally.

It is essentially a denial of reality, followed by an ad hominem attack.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/ad-hominem/

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html

Essentially, what happens, is that they can't find a logical and substantiated arguement against what I said (or even the links I posted), so they resort to personal attack. The premise behind this logical fallacy, is that if they attack me and make me look bad, then my arguement must not hold merit. The problem is that it has nothing to do with my arguement, and everything to do with trying to discredit me, so that they can justify their position against me in their own mind. The Ego is very predictable and easy to work with if you know what you look for. Luckily, my job involves dealing with this shit all day, everyday, so it is like second nature for me to see it and call it out.

Ultimately, guys like this can believe whatever they want. It isn't based on sound logic, reality, or facts. It is supposition, fabrication, and denial. It doesn't affect me any, but it sure does lower his quality of life, he just doesn't understand that. He doesn't want to deal with the reality of the situation, so he builds himself a bubble based on blaming me for everything. Whatever. I will still enjoy today, and tomorrow.

The really laughable part of his tantrum is that I said pretty repeatedly "not saying you should or shouldn't do it, just saying that there ARE sideeffects." I also said repeatedly "not saying it should or shouldn't be legalized." He is doing the same shit Ben used to do when faced with the exact same topic, in the exact same type of thread. This is nothing new. He thinks he is reinventing the wheel, but he isn't.

What really amazes me is that even though I didn't tell a single person they were horrible, apparently I did... LOL at stupidity. Apparently, open mindedness isn't tolerable in this day and age. Hell, we will sit there and preach it, but just wait until someone doesn't agree with us. String them up for having a different opinion than ours (which I didn't even have), even though we are "tolerant" of only those who are like us.

It's actually pretty sad to be honest.

Basically, all the things in red, with the white stuff as a background.
Thanks for typing it, toycar.

And, the synopsis of my report I posted is:

Weed was made illegal as a way to deport "job stealing" Mexican immigrants, and lock up "uppity" blacks. Weed was never made illegal because of the properties of it as a substance, but rather because it was like moonshine. Something the common poor man used, and as a method of control.

I'm not for people choosing to become "stoners", its not what I would want for my own boys. BUT I feel that society should treat it like we treat alcohol. Honestly, I would rather one of my sons end up a stoner than an alcoholic.

What you would prefer is totally irrelevant to the discussion, as is the origin of the laws.

The discussion is about whether or not there are measurable side effects to MJ use, and like it or not, there are.

You are now attempting to construct a Red Herring (Isn't this fun? ):

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-herring.html

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/redherrf.html

I never said anything about alcohol being good.

I never said anything about the origins of the law, or whether they were good or not.

I never said anything about anyone who smokes pot, nor did I say anything about anyone who drinks alcohol.

I didn't say a thing about whether I have smoked pot, nor have I revealed anything about my past, my history, or my positions on something.

I really do get a kick out of dicussions like this, where you guys can never have an actual discussion on the topic, because you don't have a leg to stand on. Why don't we try sticking to the actual topic, rather than resorting to presumption, assumption, personal attack, and logical fallacies?

If you think I am wrong, and MJ has absolutely no downsides, then why don't you start providing the material to prove me wrong? Let's actually learn instead of just hurling insults and stupidity around, shall we? If ever there was a time to prove your case, now would be it.

Sure it does, and the fact that the PRESIDENT was a pot smoking college kid makes him inadequate right?

Geoff, I see your sarcasm, and appreciate it.


I just want to point out, that since MJ hasnt been legal, considered medicine or anything of the like for more then 10 years, where does anyone get off speculating about the long term effects in reference to memory, performance and the like? Science didnt start studying the effects of MJ again until it was passed as a medicine about 10 years ago. Actually, it passed about 15 years ago but didnt start actually happening till around 2000.

Sure, you can be impared by MJ, but just because you got blazed the night before does not mean you cannot work the next day, or are all the sudden f-ed up for life. I agree, working while high is a bad idea. BUT, to even try and put MJ and alcohol on the same level in terms of effects is retarded.

People get so drunk, they are stupid and incapable of even sitting upright-sometimes. I cannot believe that anyone would ever consider the effects even remotely similar.

And, to validate some of what that dipshit is saying, the health effects known to smoking marijuana are caused by the carcinogens that you ingest when you LIGHT the bud on fire, its not from the bud. Its from the lighter, and the fire that you start in the bowl. Try smoking with a magnifying glass, its much better and shit lasts waay longer-(Old hippy trick).

Thats why people that smoke for medicinal purposes are required to use a vaporizor, or take THC tablets. Yes, using a lighter can fuck you up. No smoking POT has nothing to do with why your health got shitty, and yes science has proven that time and again. The active ingredients in MJ have nothing to do with any health problems related to ingesting MJ, its all in the way you consume it.

To be clear, I dont smoke pot. I have friends that have smoked since I did(highschool, college, all the way up till marriage really, and I suppose I still do occasionally- LOL), and they are just fine. They smoke everyday. They being 4-5 people, who are probably more active/fit/responsible then just about anyone in this thread talking bad about MJ. I smoked for almost 15 years, every single day without any real issues, and I know lots of other people in the same boat that all laugh at people that think MJ is sooo bad.

Boy, you sure do have your panties in a wad.
You are the very epitome of close minded, considering that all you can do is hurl insults and attack me.

I didn't even make the statements you claim, so I wonder where you get off claiming I did. If you can't have an intelligent adult discussion, without insinuating, putting words in my mouth and resorting to personal attack, then you can go on a vacation until you change your mind. If you want to discuss fine. If all you can do is have a hissy fit and make personal attacks like a 3 year old, that is fine too.

The addictive properties of marijuana are psychological. Yes, it does alter brain chemistry (that's why it works... why all drugs work, even Tylenol...) but it does not create a dependency. A stoner does not experience physical withdrawal symptoms. An alcoholic feels real cravings, just like hunger or thirst, for the drug. The body physically NEEDS a substance when a chemical addiction is present.
Marijuana "addiction" is more of an issue of willpower than anything else. Like being addicted to picking your nose. Yes, it is a pleasurable sensation, but it is not something that your body is going to punish you for if you can't meet that desire.


I'm a psychologist, with an interest in both childhood development and social psychology. It is what I currently hold my degree in, and what I will be earning my doctorate in over the next few years.
I truly believe that the social classification of marijuana is the most dangerous aspect of the substance. It has been branded as illegal. Marijuana use is considered to be deviant behavior.
If you take a look at other forms of deviant behavior... the more removed from "normal" that a certain behavior is, the stronger and more extreme the subculture surrounding it becomes. When a behavior is considered "normal", there is almost no subculture surrounding it.

Marijuana is socially classified as a drug. Using marijuana is "deviant behavior", and is associated with "drug use". I say this in quotes, because drinking a beer or smoking a cigarette are not considered "drug use"... though both of them are no less "drug use" than marijuana use. Marijuana users are "drug users". They are associated more with cocaine users, heroin users, etc... and therefore they are immersed in the "drug user" subculture. THAT is why marijuana is a "gateway drug"... because using it affiliates the user with that deviant subculture. It is absolutely true that a person who smokes a joint at the age of 16 is more likely to try cocaine than a person that drinks a beer at the same age. It has nothing to do with the substance itself, but of the cultural expectations of those people that partake in such activities.
If marijuana were to be removed from the "drug" category, and put in the same category as alcohol and tobacco, it would be much less of a "gateway drug". Granted, consumption of age-restricted substances by anyone underage is always going to be "deviant behavior", but certain things are a bit more expected.

Deev, my father is also a psychologist, so what is your point?
I also have some psychology background, so I am not exactly unfamiliar with the area. The fact is that ANY substance that alters your body chemistry has an effect. Most likely, long term when used in enough quantity. Does that mean we should all drink water and eat bread? No. But total denial of reality is not the solution either.

The fact is that MJ is classified as a social drug because it produces a lot of the same issues. It impairs motor function, judgement, and reaction times. In that regard it is exactly the same as alcohol, or any other controlled substance. Long term, frequent use can affect brain chemistry, judgement, memory, and if you smoke it, there are many issues related to that as well.

Physical or mental addition is still addiction. And sorry, but some of the links disagree with you too. Quite a few people in studies HAVE experienced withdrawal symptoms from MJ. Symptoms included inability to sleep, loss of appetite, etc. They may not have been as violently severe as alcohol, cocaine, etc. but they ARE there. They are measureable, and they do occur at a fairly high rate (directly related to age of initiation and frequency of use, just like any other drug).

Now, I will repeat it again, so that it can fall on deaf, close minded ears (not yours), but I don't personally have too much issue if pot is smoked or alcohol is consumed. I don't care what the legalities of it are, as that is a seperate matter entirely from the facts and side effects of its use. Do I think it is worse than alcohol? No. Do I think that because alcohol is legal, that automatically justifies anything else? No. One has nothing to do with the other.

However, for people to say that it has no affect on their lifestyle, and then post threads about it a month before a holiday, smoke it all the time, etc, is pretty telling that it plays a larger role in their life than they want to admit. Personally, I don't depend on any substances, and much prefer to activate my pleasure receptors the old fashioned way, but that doesn't necessarily mean I am blind or biased. People can attack me all they want. Until the attack the science, they are going to get nowhere.