af_1132 : 1993 Accord LX

[af_1132]

I got your sub, thanks man!

Yes, this will be a lot of work, but I took the whole motor apart, so I have no reservations now. We here, you definitely included, have done your fare amount of "winter season" projects. I am ready to do the same this winter for sure!

My goals for the HP are to hit 200 with the most area under the curve that I can get. The trans is fully built already (Syncrhotech Prelude shell and 1st-4th with all carbon synchros, Accord 5th, M-factory LSD, and 4.26 FD) and the 4 puck Exedy has plenty of meat. I will just resurface the ACT 12.5 lb flywheel.

Check out my recent thread in the Performance Tech section that details the options I feel I have. I would really appreciate your input.

[af_1132]

Well, just had a chance to take the F22 crank that was in the car from the beginning to some trusted guys. They told me the #2 rod journal was toast, and can't be machined. I figured that was a possibility due to the fact that both #2 rod bearings were shards in the pan, and driven for at most one mile like that.

New F22 crank: $1181 - > that's a NO! I would have to get all the bearings too, some of which are discontinued.

Well, Hmotorsonline has F22A long blocks for $989, or H22A long blocks for $1199, K24A4 long blocks for $949, H23A blue top long blocks for $949.

I just went onto zealautowerks and used their compression calculator for these motors. I had NO idea that the K24A4 had a 99mm stroke, 11.5:1 compression! In my newly purchased 05 Accord (CM5), I'm not feeling that stroke. The F23 had better torque in my CG5.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I'm purchasing a motor, that's for sure, just not entirely set on which one. OBDI is preferred...

Thoughts, what would you do?

[Raf99]

Well...... my as much as I like H22s vs. F22 my thoughts are to go with the K24, simply for the fact that you will be able to find OEM parts and after market parts. Building my H22 I ran into a lot of issues finding parts and had to go with used parts in most cases.

[Rilas]

Why not go pick up a F22A block from a junkyard. Go on a weekend bring a buddy. I know my local pick a part charges about $250 for an engine. Just find an Accord that was side swiped or rear ended, you know the car was running fine when it was killed.

You could always get an F23A long block as well for the added stroke and torque. I do know that you were looking to build a bit more of a square motor though.

Otherwise imo I would go with the H22A block. If your spending that kind of cash you might as well get an upgrade in the process. I just can't see almost spending $1k on a stock F22A engine.

[Grumpys93]

I agree with Will, I wouldn’t spend 1,000 on an f22. You can easily find an H22a or even a k24 for cheaper then that on Craigslist. K24 would be fun and parts will be easier to source for years to come. Like John said we are now starting to experience what old classic car builders are experiencing, discontinued parts and less and less Accords in the junkyard. With the k, you will have more aftermarket support, OEM support as Honda is still using the k series engines in their new cars.

For longevity purposes and I think better bang for your buck I would go with the k24 as well. With a simple bolt ons and a reflash you get over 200 to the wheels. If I wasn’t already invested in the f22 I would have gone k.

[Jarrett]

The thing about the H/F format is how quickly you'll be back up and going on the road, not to mention being able to retain the Synchrotech transmission.

My suggestion would be to invest in both. Buy an H23A VTEC for now and it will bolt up to all of your existing mounts, as well as use your current fuel system, radiator and wiring. This on top of using Synchrotech transmission and the Exedy clutch and lightweight flywheel you've got. You've got a Hondata S300 v3 that would only require a new tune, and you'd only have to change the upper manifold of the header to retain your exhaust that's already fitted with your wideband. It's just too easy not to go this route.

The reason I say to purchase both is that you can go to any junkyard and find a K24A1/2/3/4 for $300-400. If someone was looking for a drop-in solution that was decent at everything, I'd say the K24A2 from the '06-'08 TSX (larger intake valves than the '04-'05 distinguished by the "RBB-2" on the head") was the best option. But you're doing high-rpm road racing and the ports on the PRB head found on the K20A2 are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH (read: much) better for that application. So to build one ideally-suited for you, you're going to need to acquire different OEM parts over some time and assemble it. All the while, your Accord is chugging along with an H23A VTEC at a total cost of $900 for the engine, $300 for new fluids, gaskets and belts, and $40 (if you wanted to splurge) for the VTEC/knock subharness to integrate the wiring into your factory loom.

[af_1132]

Ah! It's very nice to hear from all of you.

Another thought I had was OBDI vs. OBDII. I'm really not into the idea (right now) of converting the harness I have to OBDII. I can solder, but I'm under the impression that it is much more involved than that. I've heard that so much has to be redone, everything from pins to plugs. So for me, OBDII H22As, H23As, and K24s are down the road, but not the current solution.

I have certainly thought about getting an F22 short block. But, for the kind of abuse it will receive at Laguna Seca, I will have to tear it down and check everything, which will necessitate new bearings, some of which are now discontinued. I know some people would be absolutely fine throwing it in. I am just not, because I have to know it is healthy when exiting turn 11 to hit 100mph by turn 1, or going up the Rahal straight after turn 6. Piece of mind goes a long way when you drive 40 minutes to the track in the car you are going to race on the track.

I just called Hmotorsonline. They have lots of H23A VTECs, but they are all OBDII blue tops. The only H23 they have that is OBD1 is the H23A3, which is meh compared to the H22A long blocks they have for under $200 more.

Are there actually H23A VTECs in existence that are OBDI? Am I overestimating the difficulty the of OBDI to OBDII harness conversion?

Also, the most important question is the ECU. Mine is a P06 with Hondata S300. I thought that this can't run an H with VTEC, and I would need a p13, p28, or P72. If I can pin it to include the knock sensor wiring and the VTEC wiring, then that is HUGE.

[Jarrett]

Let me correct something I said before. I mentioned that you could get a subharness that would assist you in adding knock sensor wiring, as well as other things. Yes, the H23A VTEC has a knock sensor, but your Hondata S300 doesn't have provisions for it. So that's eliminated. As you already have the correct intake manifold, you would need a subharness that added VTEC solenoid wiring and that for your IABs. Unless you don't want to run them, that is.

This is an example of the subharnesses I'm referring to. This one even has a VTEC pressure plug (which Hondata will eliminate), and a knock sensor plug. You could just pull that out and not use it. Then the pin just runs through the firewall to the back of the ECU connector.

As far as the P06 running VTEC, you're also fine. The Hondata S300 board can run VTEC through one of its outputs. However, if you would prefer, your ECU can be converted to a P28 to use VTEC in the same way that Honda does, too. The S300 will be non-issue with that conversion.

OBD1 vs. OBD2 can be pretty confusing with the way people describe it. In your case, you would be converting an OBD2(ish) engine to OBD1 for use in an OBD1 chassis. You already have the correct plenum to run the correct IACV, you're already set up for RDX 410cc injectors, and you would just need TD-61U distributor and it will plug right in to your factory wiring and bolt up to the H23A.

And no, there are no H23A VTECs that are true OBD1 from the factory. However, with what I just described to you, that's not really a concern.

To try to be as correct as possible, add $200 for the correct DC upper manifold, $100 for a TD-61U distributor and $40ish for a P13 H22A lower intake manifold if you want to keep your AEM fuel rail.

Still, that's $1600 and you're back on the road with a very different car that will still have near-stock reliability!

[af_1132]

Ok, awesome! So here is an idea:

H23A blue top for $949, get that sub harness, delete the knock sensor wiring, tell hondata to ignore the VTEC pressure plug signal and IAB signal (I will delete that plate and use the Blacktrax spacer instead), pin the ECU for VTEC and program S300 to run it, get the TD-61U distributor, and then two more things:

I used the AEM rail on a full H23A manifold, are you sure I have to get H22A P13 runners when this whole motor above is P13 spec?

Do I have to switch over the rear T bracket or rear mount, or can I use the F22 rear mount and bracket? I know you have to do a switch over for the H22. I honestly can't remember if I switched it over when doing the tranny swap, it was that long ago!

[Jarrett]

There is a good chance the H23A VTEC you buy from Hmotors would be a PDE head. If that's the case, it has unique lower manifold the uses fuel rail posts similar to the F23A. The '98-'99 uses one style on a P13 head, and the '00-'02 uses the newer style on a PDE head. That would be one thing I would wait on purchasing if you decided to go this route. Just see what shows up, and buy a manifold accordingly.

You already have the T bracket you need. In fact, you have the T-bracket that most people swap over to. No concerns there, swap or otherwise.

[Raf99]

Oh ya, and forgot to mention how low the K24 hangs for the oil pan. Plus mount mods, axles, blah blah blah. Probably best to stick with OBD1 and start stock piling parts like a mad scientist. You probably already have parts too.

[af_1132]

Oh, I forgot to mention that I sold my H23 manifold and complete exhaust to a friend who is just starting out (rm3000 on here). So, I am deciding on exhaust right now. I am leaning towards the PLM tri-Y header, but I just have to make sure that the H22 and H23 exhaust ports line up the same. After that, I am deciding on K-Teller 2.5" piping or K-Teller 3" piping, which will be combined with a Vibrant resonator and muffler.

After calling Hmotorsonline for a second time, they clarified for me that the manifold and head and all sections are stamped P13 on the motor, and it came out of a JDM '98 Accord Wagon.

Let me correct myself, the manifold and head and all sections are stamped P13 on my motor, and my motor came out of a JDM '98 Accord Wagon .

[Jarrett]

Woohoo!

That's great that it's all P13 stuff. That will make using your AEM fuel rail and injectors just a matter of bolting them on just like they were on the manifold you sold. No adapters or anything.

Also, the H23A VTEC and H22A have the exact same exhaust flange pattern. Like I mentioned earlier, and is the case with YOUR new engine, the '98-'99 H23A VTEC has the H22A head.

Since you're planning on redoing the entire exhaust, the flange on the PLM header is fine. You'll need a universal catalytic converter and have an exhaust shop who installs your K-Teller piping to make a catalytic converter pipe that matches the PLM header and whichever flange you use on the exhaust.

[af_1132]

I just priced out the whole exhaust on ebay, yikes its going to be $997!

PLM Tri-Y version 2: has the flex pipe and flange
Vibrant 3 bolt flange and gasket to weld to cat
Magnaflow 2.5" universal cat
Trubendz 2.5" piping
Vibrant Ultra-Quiet resonator 2.5"
Vibrant 2.5" muffler with dual tips (just for Jarrett)!

Man, the misses won't be happy...

[Jarrett]

A man after my own heart.