pinion gear adjustments

[wed3k]

okay, i had slack in my steering wheel...

checked my tierods and it wasnt them so i do furthur inspection and while i move the steering wheel back and forth i get a clacking noise from the steering wheel and where the rod from the steering go into the rack and pinion.

NOW, according to alldata...i need to adjust the pinion gear. using a 14mm wrench and a pair of adjustable pliers to hold the exterior nut. i was able to get all the slack out of the rack. but now my steering wheel moves back and forth without moving the steering rod.

so, i pop the H elbelm off the steering wheel and crank the nut down and nothing...

i turn the vehicle on to test the steering and now it feels like i have manual steering. what did i fuck up on? i think the adjustment nut needs to be tightened to a certain pound per square inch and that would be the proper specification.

i searched her and honda-tech and it seems like no one adjusts their pinion gear, lol. help.

[accordaffair]

http://media.honda.co.uk/car/owner/m.../400/11-65.pdf

scroll down to 11-62...thats all I can say, sorry bro

[wed3k]

yea i overtightened it...thanks for the link my manual doesnt say shit about the pinion gear.

[johnl]

yea i overtightened it...thanks for the link my manual doesnt say shit about the pinion gear.

When the rack gear wears it wears most where it spends most of it's time in contact with the pinion, i.e. near the middle of the rack gear teeth. If you adjust out the slack with the steering at the straight ahead position, then when you steer much away from the staright ahead the relatively unworn parts of the rack gear will be too tight relative to the pinion and the rack will start to bind up.

To tighten the pinion / rack gear backlash without causing bind, I think you'll need to adjust it with the steering near one extreme of steering lock (adjusting at a relatively unworn section of the rack gear), but with the steering wheel at least 90° away from 'straight'. I.e. turn the wheel all the way until it stops turning, but if the steering wheel is then at / near the staright ahead position turn the wheel back a bit until it's at least 90° to the normal straight ahead position (I mean 'straight' as far as the steering wheel is concerned with the top of the wheel at 12 o'clock, the road wheels will still be turned).

You probably need to do this because the bottom of the pinion will probably also be worn, and more worn just to each side of 'straight ahead' (i.e. the bottom part of the pinion gear). It's likely you won't get rid of all the slack at the straight ahead without the steering binding, so probably all you'll be able to do is make the problem less bad.

Are you sure that you're problem isn't actually in one or both of the 'rack ends', i.e. the joints at each end of the rack itself? I'd think this is a more likely place to have a problem.

[wed3k]

ive already put the vehicle on the lift and checked for tie rod play.

however....i only have the driver's side totally apart. now i have new inner tierods and outer tie rods and im wondering if i should just replace them anyways.

so i need to turn the steering wheel to full lock and then back off until the wheel is 90 degrees away from straight?
thanks, this rack and pinion stuff is all confusing.

[johnl]

To check the 'rack ends', with the front of the car jacked up, wiggle the wheels in the 3 and 9 o'clock plane (as when checking for worn tie rod ends). You're looking for play that seems identical to worn tie rod ends, but is occuring at the 'rack ends' rather than the tie rod ends.

If you suspect wear at these points then peel back the rack boots to get a clearer view of the rack ends as you wiggle the wheel. If you place your fingers both on the part of the 'rack end' that attaches directly to the rack and also on the tie rod (outside of the 'ball' joint in the rack end), then you will probably be able to feel any play in the rack end.

I woudn't just replace them on spec. If they check out OK then I'd return the new unused components you already have.

If you do have significant wear in the rack gear itself (and pinion gear most likely), then I'd be surprised if you can propery adjust it without causing rack bind at the extremes of steering lock. I'd be looking for a new rack, or a good s/h unit.

If you want to attempt to adjust it then I've just checked my CB7, and with the steering at full lock the steering wheel is upside down and so the pinion gear must also be upside down and thus with the least worn part of the pinion gear in contact with the rack gear teeth. It would be fine (ideal actually) to adjust the cearance at this position without worrying about the 90 degree stuff I was talking about previously (this was only to ensure you didn't attempt to adjust the clearance at a position where the pinion might have had the most significant wear, i.e. with the pinion right way up and to each side of that).

It might be easiest for you to just tighten it up, then back it off until you get no binding at both extremes of steering lock (checked with the front wheels jacked up), but be aware that even a slight bind is unacceptable, especially as this may increase as the rack components warm up and expand.

I've never attempted to adjust a Honda rack, it might be just a matter of a screw and a lock nut (easy), or shimming the pinion to rack clearance (a pain). Tried to have a look at the top of my rack, but couldn't see clearly enough without taking the wheel off.

[wed3k]

thanks john, it is jsut a matter of a adjsutment bolt and lock nut.
i will try and check the rack ends for excessive wear.

now would it make a difference if i just went to manual steering? i would assume it would all work the same so i would still need to either look into fixing or replacing the rack.

[dbsharp]

my rack makes a little noise when it is near center, I wonder if I need to adjust it or rebuild it. If I rebuild it, what all should I replace?

[starchland]

that 14mm nut your adjusting really doesnt take out slack, it kinda just adds pressure/friction to the rack so thats probably why you felt like you had manual steering

[evil_demon_01]

that 14mm nut your adjusting really doesnt take out slack, it kinda just adds pressure/friction to the rack so thats probably why you felt like you had manual steering

It does take out the slack/wear in the pinion/rackbar. Thats the point of the adjuster, adding pressure/friction would apply if there was no clearance at all, and by the sound of the OP there is clearance.
However I have only ever adjusted it on cars with less than 50,000kms and that was for warranty reasons only.
I recommend getting a new or 2nd hand rack if there is that much play in the centre.

Can you feel the play if the steering wheel is on full lock or not at the centre postion?

[wed3k]

i havent really tried at full lock but there is still play in my steering wheel itself. my steering wheel can move back and forth and not rotate the column...thats what kinda bothers me.

[johnl]

i havent really tried at full lock but there is still play in my steering wheel itself. my steering wheel can move back and forth and not rotate the column...thats what kinda bothers me.

Steering columns typically have one or two universal joints in the column. One of these might be causing the problem.

Jack the car up and take the wheel off so you can look at where the column attaches to the pinion shaft on top of the rack, and have an assistant (I presume you have assistants on your personal staff?!) wiggle the steering wheel back and forth. You're looking to see if motion at the wheel translates into motion at the forward end of the column.

I don't know whether or not a manual rack is available, but I've driven my CB7 with the PS belt off, and the steering was very heavy without power assist. To avoid unacceptably heavy steering a manual rack would need to be very low geared (lower than the PS rack) which would increase turns lock to lock and mean more steering wheel rotation for X steering input. IMO the PS rack is already less direct than I'd like it to be, and lowering the ratio further would drive me nuts.