ultimate vtec??

[immeraufdemhund]

I was stinking today about hooking up a couple of actuators to the valves and having that run the vavles and let it all be electrical. I have a couple of questions about something like this though. I ran the idea by my step dad who is a thermal dynamics something er ether... and he said it's a good idea and i'm not the first to have that idea. so the question that remains though is why isn't it more popular..why do we still rely on mechanical timing instead of electrical. Everything else is electrical now a days..so why not our cam.

the first thing Mike (my stepdad) said was that the strength needed to over come the spring on the valve would make the actuator kinda big. but what if i got rid of the spring, and had the vavle always closed with no voltage. Then apply 12 volts and it opens. you can increase the strength by using a gear..or vacuum...or magnets or something... i just fail to see how you can't do it with electronics. Windshield wipers are strong and if you use the same idea you could get it dun..maybe... any ideas...

[RidnLow]

new idea

try it and see what the outcome would be. you got a 50/50 chance

[bruno8747]

How will the actuator know when to open?

[Mike]

How will the actuator know when to open?

it would be a part of the ecu........so the question is how are u going to "make" an ecu to aply to that or program that into the ecu???....

[GHOST 2.2]

it would be a part of the ecu........so the question is how are u going to "make" an ecu to aply to that or program that into the ecu???....

a stand alone ultimate vtec engager

[Legacy Accord]

here's an idea, for the time and money you put into this project, its not going to be worth it

[Mike]

here's an idea, for the time and money you put into this project, its not going to be worth it

hah thats exactly wat i was thinkin.......no offence, its a awsome idea but i think ur in way over ur head here

[deevergote]

Find an electrical actuator that will open and close the valve fast enough for extended periods of time without burning out and it's a good idea. However, using such an elecrical device would result in a very low operating life. A stupid metal bumpstick and spring loaded valves will actually make it past 1000 miles. The electric motors would not.

[immeraufdemhund]

I dont know if it would neccessarily be over my head. Every 180º you have something that fires. in between that 180º it's not too difficult to time when you should open your exhaust and your intake. If you start with a easy program and work up to the vtec and the retard functions and all that stuff then it's not really all that bad. The hard part is going to be working with a 16 valve motor. I wish that the suzuki motor that i'm working on right now was mine because it's a 8v motor.

One problem that i was thinking about last night too would be the distributor. I'd have to switch to DIS or have it run off the crank..cause if i dont have a cam then i dont have anything to turn my dizzy. I dont see that as being a problem, but more of a tinkering thing. I'm going to look into a couple of different methods of moving the valve besides a cam. I don't see why this isn't possible. hmm.. too bad i dont have that 3g..i'd love to fool with that..

[deevergote]

$200... come get my 3G hatch

If you could find some sort of actuator that would be able to withstand the beating of opening and closing a valve so quickly (and for extended periods of time) it would be a very interesting concept indeed. Such a system, coupled with a matched fuel system and a reliable DIS system, you could make a truly variable valve timing setup. Rather than have the 2 settings that VTEC offers, you could increase lift and duration gradually to accomodate the breathing needs of the motor.

Now, why doesn't this exist on cars already? Is it too expensive to mass-produce? Or are there no actuators capable of handling the load? If you can find an actuator that will meet your needs, then there's a possibility of making this work.

Now, once you get that to work, you're going to have to redesign the upper portion of the head completely to mount these things. Depending on the size of the actuators, you may need to use a cowled hood as well. The good news is that you can eliminate the rotating mass of the camshaft!

[F22-GURU]

hah thats exactly wat i was thinkin.......no offence, its a awsome idea but i think ur in way over ur head here

Isn't that what they said to the bloke who invented the Internal Combustion Motor.

BTW: It's already been done - Look
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/...02Wcbf56hRCrcd

[owequitit]

They currently have something very similar in F1 cars. I think they are using pneumatic actuators though. It is very $$$$, but so was VTEC at one point. Everybody told Honda it was impossible or it wouldn't be worth it. Then they kicked everyone's ass in racing until they finally quit.

The OEMs are working on it, trust me. Honda has made public statements that allude to the fact they are working on "the next generation VTEC." In order to eclipse Valvetronic (BMW's "infinitely" variable valve timing) they may do something like what you are talking about. VTEC came directly from F1 too.

Like Deevergote said: they have issues with actuator reliablity as well as size, weight and heat resistance. They have some actuators in the aviation world that could probably "evolve" but again $$$$.

Also, what method would you use to keep the valve closed in the absence of electrical power? Gravity will disagree, and that is essentially what the spring does. Just thought maybe you had some ideas.

It is very promising though, because it would allow truely infinite valve timing. Plus, you could just shut the valves off, so imagine how easy it would be to make VCM systems. No mechanical mishmash or actuators, or oil passages etc etc etc.

And to the naysayers, who say it isn't worth it, the first couple examples never are. It is the long term future of the technology that makes it's development worthwhile.

Hypothetically, this technology would allow a 300HP NA 2.2 liter stock. Maybe even with an increased redline. You don't have any of the tunability issues of a mechanical valve system that plague the OEMs, and the parasitic power loss, rotating inertia, windage, and all of the other various little savings from not having a valve train would result in a tremendous power savings. Plus, if you can very cheaply add Variable Cylinder Management, then you probably would save gas too.

[deevergote]

They currently have something very similar in F1 cars. I think they are using pneumatic actuators though. It is very $$$$, but so was VTEC at one point. Everybody told Honda it was impossible or it wouldn't be worth it. Then they kicked everyone's ass in racing until they finally quit.

The OEMs are working on it, trust me. Honda has made public statements that allude to the fact they are working on "the next generation VTEC." In order to eclipse Valvetronic (BMW's "infinitely" variable valve timing) they may do something like what you are talking about. VTEC came directly from F1 too.

Like Deevergote said: they have issues with actuator reliablity as well as size, weight and heat resistance. They have some actuators in the aviation world that could probably "evolve" but again $$$$.

Also, what method would you use to keep the valve closed in the absence of electrical power? Gravity will disagree, and that is essentially what the spring does. Just thought maybe you had some ideas.

It is very promising though, because it would allow truely infinite valve timing. Plus, you could just shut the valves off, so imagine how easy it would be to make VCM systems. No mechanical mishmash or actuators, or oil passages etc etc etc.

And to the naysayers, who say it isn't worth it, the first couple examples never are. It is the long term future of the technology that makes it's development worthwhile.

Hypothetically, this technology would allow a 300HP NA 2.2 liter stock. Maybe even with an increased redline. You don't have any of the tunability issues of a mechanical valve system that plague the OEMs, and the parasitic power loss, rotating inertia, windage, and all of the other various little savings from not having a valve train would result in a tremendous power savings. Plus, if you can very cheaply add Variable Cylinder Management, then you probably would save gas too.

I love reading your posts about this kinda stuff

Depending on the speed capabilities of an actuator, the RPM range could be phenominal.


Unfortunately, we'd have to wait for this stuff to hit F1, then the Italian supercars, then the high end German cars.... THEN our little Hondas. For any of us to use such technology as it trickles down (as long as we're into our CB7s) we'd need to shell out crazy money for the parts, retrofit it all into the F/H motor design, and pretty much write the ECU programming from scratch. Impossible? No, certainly not. Too expensive for most of us? Probably. This would be a life's work for a single person... To make something like this practical, you need a team of highly paid engineers working many many hours... And lots of testing. Also, probably lots of failure before anything is good enough to even consider implementing on a mass-production car (even the limited production supercars). Once they figure out how to make it reliable, they have to figure out how to make it cheaper... and still retain enough reliability to be worth it!

[owequitit]

Thanks Deev. I guess I just see things differently than most. Usually I get flamed for it. LOL!

All good points too by the way. You would definitely need many over qualified geek types. OEMs spend millions if not billions on R+D for stuff like this.

One of the things I like and admire most about Honda, is that they tend to bypass the upper end. VTEC being the best example. The first VTEC engine was the little B16 then the NSX! Both were on the market long before Ferrari or BMW or any of the others had anything available. If they can figure out a way to do it and then spread it across every engine they build, the economies of scale would offset most of the cost. Not to mention their CAFE credits, image (economy and performance), and bottom line (it may ultimately prove cheaper). They are the world's largest producer of engines after all, and everybody would like more for less.

It would be a lot of fun to play with, it is good brain exercise, but I do agree tht realistically it would be too much for just one person, if you are looking to make it everyday feasible. No harm in trying though.

[immeraufdemhund]

I'd be curious to know how much pressure it takes to keep the valve sealed. Most all the springs on the heads i've worked on are rather strong and that's been making me wonder. I know one reason is because it limits lag time due to inertia of the valve weight... if it truely does take as much pressure as those springs are pulling then i would see this project as too difficult for a DIY like me....or a number of people. but if it doesn't take much pressure than my options are open as to what means i use to keep the valve closed. To keep it close i would either have to have a spring, magnet, or vacuum. spring being the most reliable means to hold the valve up, but then i'd probably have to a very strong actuator of sorts but then all it has to do is push... that being the case then pneumatic would be the way for that. vacuum would be a problem because of heat..having a perfect seal all the time would be super hard due to heat.

magnets..either electrical or rock type... just are not strong enough i dont think.

pnuematic sounds like the best option..but if that's being used in f1 that means that it is hard to come by and is expensive.

the only other thing i could think of would be to use something similar to impact wrench style movement. problem would be in getting compressed air....no wonder you guys said this is too hard...but i appreciate the thoughts and what not..

well guess i'll just get to thinking of more things.