Clutch damper delete, a good thing...

[johnl]

I've just deleted the clutch line damper, wish I'd done it long ago.

The result is subtle but pleasing, I now feel more in touch with my clutch. The pedal has a 'springier' feel, and a more consistent action. I used to feel as if the clutch had a small amount of 'lag' in it's operation, which would have been acceptable if it had been consistent, but it wasn't, which made it hard to account for.

There were times when the clutch didn't react quite as I expected or wanted it to, sometimes engaging more or less heavily or lightly and / or more or less quickly than it should have, resulting in a lurch or excessive slippage. Sometimes it would result in a mistimed gear shift. None of this helped by a general feeling of 'numbness' in the pedal. The clutch has always just felt as if there was something a bit 'wrong' with it, in comparison to other clutches in other cars.

It's much nicer and more predictable with the damper deleted. However, it is rather subtle and I expect some people wouldn't really notice much difference, particularly people who make slow and deliberative gear shifts.

To delete the damper I just disconnected the two hard lines at the damper and cut the fittings off the ends. I then cut a short length of brass rod (about 3cm) with a suitably sized hole drilled through the length of it. Next step is to lead solder the two tubes into the brass connector tube. Strip off the plastic coating on the hard lines and abrade the surface down to clean metal before soldering. I used a 'grease' type soldering flux and simple electrical solder.

An acidic flux should work too, but I don't know how much would get left in the interior of the tubes nor how hard to clean out it may be nor whether it might react badly with the hydraulic fluid. A grease type flux just seemed likely to be more 'benign' if some were left in there. I flushed the tube through with hot water and then methylated spirits injected through with a large syringe, hopefully that got most of it, but I think I'll thoroughly re-bleed it in a few days.

I would normally silver solder a similar tubular joint, but cleaning the borax based flux out is an issue in this application. Be careful with the orientation of the tubes, try to bend the end of each one so that the alignment is reasonably close to correct before they are joined. There is some scope for bending / flexing so that the (now single) modified tube will fit and connect easily at each end, but only so much without becoming a pain.

I also cut away that part of the mounting bracket that holds the damper, just leaving the part that holds the end of the rubber clutch hose. This gives a bit more scope for 'shaping' the somewhat hard to bend hard lines.

I cut the damper open to see how it works, but can't really fathom it out, it doesn't look like it would do much (other than being a air trap). There are no springs, diaphragms, valves or other hardware inside that look like they would do anything significant, yet it must do something, somehow...

[johnl]

PS,
It's also gotten rid of a 'creak' that could be felt and heard in the system. Now there is just a slight audible 'squeak' that I didn't notice before, but I'm guessing it's unrelated.

[Flip-Eye]

Interesting, I've had similar experiences with my clutch engage/disengagement. You're making me want to investigate further. I just always thought the clutch was slipping a little bit.

Any pics of the soldering job?

[johnl]

Interesting, I've had similar experiences with my clutch engage/disengagement. You're making me want to investigate further. I just always thought the clutch was slipping a little bit.

Any pics of the soldering job?

Sorry no pics, but it's a simple matter of soldering two tubes (the hard lines) of X OD into another tube of very slightly larger ID (than the OD of the hard lines). The piece of brass tube I used was nothing special, cannibalised and cut from a garden hose fitting, and drilled oversized to suit the OD of the hard lines.

If you try this do make sure that each tube is inserted far enough into the joining tube, you don't want a tube hanging on by it's teeth, the pressures in the clutch line are significantly high. I wouldn't try this if you have little experience soldering. I used a propane torch to heat the parts being soldered, I doubt it would be possible to do with a soldering iron, unless it was a very large one...

I can't say if your (apparent) clutch slip is related to the damper, but I'd tend to doubt it if you have more than just an occasional incidence of the clutch slipping too much after a gear shift. The sort of slippage caused by the damper is only brief and due to the driver becoming a little confused as to what the clutch is actually doing (numb pedal syndrome), and not releasing the pedal quite as much or as quickly as really needs to occur to prevent excessive slippage.

To check for a slipping clutch try accelerating uphill in too high a gear, if the rpm rise in an untoward manner then you have an issue with the clutch itself. Having said that, a marginal clutch may not slip with that test, but may fail to regain grip once it starts to slip due to clumsy or aggressive engagement.

I wouldn't be surprised if at least some % of clutch wear could be attributed to the action of the clutch damper allowing more slip to occur than otherwise might...

[H311RA151N]

The location on the clutch damper makes it a bitch to work with. Buy a braided clutch line from Valex Racing for $55 shipped. Even with the engine removed messing with the hard lines are a pain. Not to mention with braided clutch line you eliminate a lot of possibilities of it leaking.

Personally I don't like not having a clutch damper. I have harsher shifts and they are less consistent. I will also add that every car/truck I have currently is manual and none of them give me the grief that my Accord does. My other Accord with the clutch damper was much easier to get smooth shifts with. Same trans, new Exedy clutch, genuine Honda MTF, Exedy slave and master cylinders. Still it's just not as daily driver friendly IMO.

[djcaz_aom]

We do dampner deletes at my shop all the time. No need to get rid of the hard line. No need to solder. Just remove the damper and rubber line and replace with the new braided line we provide. I am not a fan of deleting the entire hard line.

I give you props on your work, but there is an easier way.

[H311RA151N]

I don't have a clutch damper because my car was originally an automatic. Installing a factory hard line for a 5 speed swap would be insane.

djcaz_aom, do you have a link or info as to where one could acquire the line you speak of? I was unaware that you had parts of the like available for purchase.

[CB7Denmark]

I bought a "gun metal" line thing from the interweb because my clutch system is leaking, never got around to replacing the hardline though but i also plan on removing the clutch damper thing.

[Accrdwgnguy]

Installing the factory hardline was quite easy with the engine and transmission removed. I don't see a need to delete the damper, Honda engineers obviously had a good enough reason to put it there and convinced the accounting department it was a worthwhile cost. Of course my Hondas are all just daily drivers.

Your other squeak is coming from the slave cylinder, where it pushes on the clutch fork. Put some marine grease in there and it should go away.

[CB7Denmark]

Installing the factory hardline was quite easy with the engine and transmission removed. I don't see a need to delete the damper, Honda engineers obviously had a good enough reason to put it there and convinced the accounting department it was a worthwhile cost. Of course my Hondas are all just daily drivers.

Your other squeak is coming from the slave cylinder, where it pushes on the clutch fork. Put some marine grease in there and it should go away.

The damper system is in pretty much every M/T car from that time and onwards to 2000 ish.

It simply delays the clutch response a little to prevent the car from "bouncing" from start, i guess you could say, its a comfort thing.

People will hardly notice any difference if you remove it and if you do, you will quickly adapt to the new clutch engagement.

Having a stock car does justice for the need of the damper, but once you start increasing your output, the damper system will work against you, creating unnecessary slippage.

[H311RA151N]

Installing the factory hardline was quite easy with the engine and transmission removed. I don't see a need to delete the damper, Honda engineers obviously had a good enough reason to put it there and convinced the accounting department it was a worthwhile cost. Of course my Hondas are all just daily drivers.

Your other squeak is coming from the slave cylinder, where it pushes on the clutch fork. Put some marine grease in there and it should go away.

For what it is, it sucks. Especially when there is a much easier option. For a 5 speed swap anyhow. Of course, I didn't remove the engine for the swap, but I pulled the hard line out of the donor car and it took about 5-10 mins. But there is so much crap that has to be removed and or loosened.

I agree with you on the damper. For a more serious car (not a daily) I might prefer it deleted. But right now it pisses me off more than anything.



Some pics just so people who haven't messed with these things can get a better visual.

[johnl]

The location on the clutch damper makes it a bitch to work with.

Wasn't too hard to remove. Moving the charcoal canister aside makes things somewhat easier to access.

Personally I don't like not having a clutch damper. I have harsher shifts and they are less consistent. My other Accord with the clutch damper was much easier to get smooth shifts with. Same trans, new Exedy clutch, genuine Honda MTF, Exedy slave and master cylinders. Still it's just not as daily driver friendly IMO.

Strange that your experience with this is more or less directly opposite to mine. We must have different 'pedal techniques'. Without the damper the clutch now feels very similar in it's action to most other clutches I've ever used. With the damper it didn't, it felt ever so slightly strange, in a not quite directly connected to the pedal sort of way, which was making consistent clutch usage a bit hit and miss.

I will also add that every car/truck I have currently is manual and none of them give me the grief that my Accord does.

In what way?

[johnl]

We do dampner deletes at my shop all the time. No need to get rid of the hard line. No need to solder. Just remove the damper and rubber line and replace with the new braided line we provide. I am not a fan of deleting the entire hard line.

I give you props on your work, but there is an easier way.

I'm sure it would have been easier using something similar to one of your kits, or have a flexible line made up by the local brake specialist. I was considering running a flexible line from the MC directly to the aluminium connector mounted on the engine (and a strangely over-engineered connector that is), but time was an issue. That day I had time to modify the existing hard lines, but not the time to drive into town, give them the fittings I needed to match for the new line, leave it with them in their queue of customer work, go back (whenever?) to pick it up etc.

Besides, removing the damper completely doesn't only improve the clutch action, it also makes the car faster. For what it is and does it's an amazingly heavy little chunk of metal...

[H311RA151N]

Wasn't too hard to remove. Moving the charcoal canister aside makes things somewhat easier to access.

Wasn't too hard but still unpleasant as for both the location and space provided IMO.

Strange that your experience with this is more or less directly opposite to mine. We must have different 'pedal techniques'. Without the damper the clutch now feels very similar in it's action to most other clutches I've ever used. With the damper it didn't, it felt ever so slightly strange, in a not quite directly connected to the pedal sort of way, which was making consistent clutch usage a bit hit and miss.

My experience isn't uncommon. Some people like it others don't. I have seen many posts on here over the years with plenty of people saying both.

It actually sounds like your damper was screwed up. Which is another reason I have seen for people removing the damper although only a couple times.

In what way?

As I said, an inconsistent pedal and it makes it more difficult to shift smoothly. (For me anyhow, as I said, some people like it some don't and some don't see any difference. Just stating my experience). I have owed 4 5 speed CB7s and even the exact transmission in one of them that's now in my 1991 Accord without the damper, it never was as temperamental to shift smoothly as it is now without the damper. And everything is of top quality and new.

[johnl]

I don't see a need to delete the damper, Honda engineers obviously had a good enough reason to put it there and convinced the accounting department it was a worthwhile cost. Of course my Hondas are all just daily drivers.

It's fitted primarily in order to reduce the speed at which the clutch can be engaged (as the pedal is released). With damper the clutch can only engage at a certain speed (or slower) regardless of how fast the driver releases the pedal. In theory this should help lessen (in some degree) an inexperienced (or unskilled) driver from engaging the clutch too quickly, and causing a 'kangaroo hop' or even stalling the engine. In practice it makes the pedal action less sensitive / less under the drivers control, and introduces at least some degree of otherwise avoidable clutch slippage.

There have been times when I've wanted to accelerate hard (say crossing an intersection with an until too late unseen vehicle coming toward me), and I released the clutch pedal while pushing the throttle pedal, only to have the clutch engage more slowly than expected and cause the rpm to rise while the clutch was still engaged relatively lightly, causing a pretty bad clutch slip and failure to accelerate as hard as I needed (and the aromatic pungency of overheated clutch lining).

This has happened with the OE clutch, and the new Prelude spec clutch currently in the car. Once the clutch is slipping too much and the rpm are rising on a heavy throttle, even once the clutch has become fully engaged it can be very difficult for the clutch to regain grip unless torque is substantially reduced. When the clutch reacts instantly to the drivers foot (i.e. engages as quickly as the driver wants it to), the driver can modulate the clutch and throttle simultaneously to achieve maximum torque transfer to the wheels, rather than having the fine control of this taken out of his / her hands.

I find that when it happens it causes a sensation of 'clutch disorientation', whereby I momentarily become mentally confused as to what is happening with the connection between wheels and engine. It doesn't do what my subconscious expects, I get a mild sensation of 'disassociation', not completely dissimilar to that which is sometimes felt when the car beside you starts to move giving the weirdly false impression that your car is moving even if it isn't (a similar sensation we've all probably felt when the train next to ours starts to move while our train is still stationary). Nothing I do with the clutch pedal helps, the only cure is to back off the throttle, or the clutch will just continue to slip.

Some BMWs use a different sort of valve that does more or less the same thing. It's apparently a common source of complaint and is a common deletion for much the same reasons I deleted my cars clutch damper. Some Nissans too, maybe some other brands...

Since I've deleted the damper I've experimentally tried to replicate the problem, but each time the clutch has started to slip I've been easily able to modulate the power transfer by balancing the clutch with the throttle to stop it happening (i.e. release the clutch pedal more to engage the clutch harder / faster), whereas previously I'm sure the only cure would be to back off the throttle. Note that these dynamics occur in fractions of a second.

Your other squeak is coming from the slave cylinder, where it pushes on the clutch fork. Put some marine grease in there and it should go away.

I agree that that is probably the cause.