Upper end knock

[johnl]

I'm leaning towards it being piston slap. Wouldn't that cause metal shavings?

I agree with wagon-r, I don't think so. The wear particles from the piston will be microscopically small, and end up suspended in the oil or sitting in any sludge at the bottom of the sump. It takes a long time for this sort of wear to occur.

[BreckAConner]

I agree with wagon-r, I don't think so. The wear particles from the piston will be microscopically small, and end up suspended in the oil or sitting in any sludge at the bottom of the sump. It takes a long time for this sort of wear to occur.

Kind of sucks this happened. It's almost been 2 years since I've had this car. I had no intentions in screwing it up and some how I did. When I got the car oh man, it sounded amazing. It's all because of that damn DNJ piece of crap oil pump I bought. I don't know why the first oil pump went out but, the 2nd one shouldn't of had a problem period. I've been looking online at rebuild heads and rebuild kits. I have a spare motor at my friends, and I want to learn how to put a motor completely together, so I'm going to go from their and rebuild. I would love to buy an h but looking on ebay for a fairy decent one is at least 2k and I'm not ready at the moment to drop money on something like that.

[Raf99]

In all honesty I've heard many of our cars sound just like this one. In the video there is no major audible pinging noise or metal clanging. Maybe it sounds different up close.

[BreckAConner]

In all honesty I've heard many of our cars sound just like this one. In the video there is no major audible pinging noise or metal clanging. Maybe it sounds different up close.

When I put a flathead up to the car to listen to the head and block it's soooo hard to pin point where it's coming from. It sounds like it's coming from between the head and block but who knows. My ears aren't that great.

[Raf99]

Have you ever got a 2nd opinion on this from a mechanic?

[BreckAConner]

Have you ever got a 2nd opinion on this from a mechanic?

I wouldn't say a professional mechanic, but friends that work on cars and know way more than I do. In their opinions they think it's the upper end since there are no trace of metal shavings so far, and the knock hasn't gotten any worst since driving on it. After my father passed away I took my old buick to a mechanic once for fuel lines that I had broken, they fixed that and then some how my car blew a head gasket at their shop and charged me more?? So I don't trust mechanics and that's why I've been trying to learn and do everything myself or with a friedns help.

[johnl]

I took my old buick to a mechanic once for fuel lines that I had broken, they fixed that and then some how my car blew a head gasket at their shop and charged me more??

I hope they didn't just change the gasket without telling you and then charged you for it...? That would be unethical and an alarm bell.

It's rather unlikely that the gasket failed while "at their shop". More likely is that it was failing already but not recognised by the owner because symptoms were as yet minimal, or, that they were bullshitting. I tend to think the former more likely, but the latter can't be ruled out (maybe somewhat more so if they get the impression you know nothing about matters mechanical). Most shops are in my experience ethical enough not to try this sort of scamming, but there are always some cowboys out there...

[BreckAConner]

Okay, today I drained the oil. It's been about 1000 miles since I put the new rod/crank bearings in. I have little tiny shiny dots, they are hard to see. They are a silver color and there's not very many of them. When I cut the filter open and looked on the outside and inside, I couldn't even see them on the filter, just in the oil pan I drained it into. Is there such thing as break-in shavings?

[johnl]

Okay, today I drained the oil. It's been about 1000 miles since I put the new rod/crank bearings in. I have little tiny shiny dots, they are hard to see. They are a silver color and there's not very many of them. When I cut the filter open and looked on the outside and inside, I couldn't even see them on the filter, just in the oil pan I drained it into. Is there such thing as break-in shavings?

I'm not sure what they'd be from. Normally I'd associate 'silver' coloured swarf with steel shavings from the timing chain / sprockets, but that's obviously not the case here. Could maybe be flakes from the cam lobes / rocker arms?

Grey swarf particles is usually bearing metal. Yellow is usually something like turbocharger bearings...(?). What else is silvery coloured? Pistons are, but I'd be surprised to see flakes from pistons unless something was seriously wrong. Are the particles magnetic? If yes then it's not piston material, if no it might be...

[BreckAConner]

I'm not sure what they'd be from. Normally I'd associate 'silver' coloured swarf with steel shavings from the timing chain / sprockets, but that's obviously not the case here. Could maybe be flakes from the cam lobes / rocker arms?

Grey swarf particles is usually bearing metal. Yellow is usually something like turbocharger bearings...(?). What else is silvery coloured? Pistons are, but I'd be surprised to see flakes from pistons unless something was seriously wrong. Are the particles magnetic? If yes then it's not piston material, if no it might be...

It's just so weird. My friend may be wrong, but he was telling me that if one of the rods were knocking, it would of been worse by now. The noise hasn't changed, still in the same RPM range. No metal flakes or chunks. I've gotten up on the car around 4 1/2 ish to get on the highway. Tonight I purposely went up to 5k and the knock hasn't gotten worse. It's so confusing.

[BreckAConner]

I decided to do a compression test, see if I even have good compression. Trying to narrow this down still.

I mostly rounded them off.

Dry:
180
180
180
185

I didn't really measure how much oil I put in each cylinder, I don't know if that will affect anything.

Wet:
240
210
220
190

Then when I did a leak down test with air, I could hear a his from inside the engine when I listened from the oil cap. Now each cylinder did this so I don't know if this is good or bad.

[wagon-r]

If you are getting a hiss at the oil cap, it means that you are getting some leakage past the rings. The change in the compression readings when you put in some oil confirm this.

But your compression still isn't bad. And any leakage would reduce the pressure on the piston and reduce rod knock or piston slap.

As long as you confirm that you don't have a problem with overly advanced ignition timing, I would just chalk it up to some wear in the engine and run it until it got worse.

[johnl]

Your dry compression looks pretty good. Your wet compression looks like you put too much oil in some of the cylinders. You have to be careful, the oil is an incompressible liquid and takes up volume in the combustion chamber (and there's not a great deal of volume at TDC), so if you put too much in then you will get an artificially high compression pressure. If you put a little bit in some cylinders and a significantly more in others then you will get numbers like you have.

Next time make sure you measure the oil, a teaspoon would be useful (you don't need much, just enough to flow around the edge of the piston top). My guess is that you put about the right amount in the fourth cylinder.

The first time I ever did a compression test I didn't measure the oil and of course I put too much in. In the first cylinder the pressure was so high it blew out the rubber seal in the tester, with a 'bang' so loud my ears were ringing. I suspect the pressure was so high that some of the oil auto ignited...

Unless there is a leaking valve, the hissing during the leak down test isn't abnormal. Even good rings don't create a perfect seal. The hissing is pressurised air escaping from the cylinder through the ring gaps, which are very small so the air makes noise as it's escaping. If you were getting no hiss then this would imply that air was escaping more easily than it should, i.e. less compression so less pressure and pressure loss though a larger escape route than the rings gaps.

You should also be able to hear hissing if you crank the engine over by hand, i.e. as the piston approaches TDC quite slowly there is plenty of time for pressure to leak through the ring gaps (and hiss). Time is the thing, when the piston is rising faster (say when cranking or with the engine running) there is far less time for the pressure to escape via the ring gaps, so compression loss is minimal.

There will always be some pressure lost through the ring gaps of course, but it's minute, even if the ring gaps are substantially larger than spec. When ring seal is the cause of poor compression, it's because air is escaping around the entire circumference of the ring, it's not the result of the ring gaps being too large. Enlarged ring gaps are often blamed as the cause of lost compression (and the gaps do get larger with significant ring / bore wear), but it's a case of guilt by association. 'Gapless' rings have been designed and used, but the idea never really went anywhere because they never really improved compression.

[johnl]

If you are getting a hiss at the oil cap, it means that you are getting some leakage past the rings. The change in the compression readings when you put in some oil confirm this.

I don't think he is getting a hiss "at the cap". It's just that the hiss is being generated at the rings and so the sound is loudest inside the crankcase, so if the cap is taken off and you listen at the filler orifice it will be louder.

I don't think the 'wet' readings are reflective of real compression or ring problems, but 'operator error'...

[BreckAConner]

It sounds like if my compression isn't that bad then the rings are ok? I do a lot of reading and some times look to far into things, but I read the other day that possibly the balancer can cause a knock? You guys probably think I'm crazy. I'm just trying to pin point my problem down so I can get it fixed before somethings bad actually happens.

I found this on another forum: "Are you sure it's a rod knock? The F22 engine has been known to make piston slap noise when it gets a ton of miles. I would also check the harmonic balancer bolt."

http://www.city-data.com/forum/autom...-gentle-2.html

Can the harmonic balancer cause a knocking noise from that bolt. I would think he's talking about the right side balance shaft when facing the front of the motor. I could of put it back in wrong. Before I didn't even have a bolt and I couldn't remember how I put the washer back in the last time. All I know is when I did put that balance shaft back in I made sure it didn't have play back and forth in that little gear chamber it sits in.