F22b1 not so bad after all?

[toycar]

There is a reason that I went from a B2 (same port geometry as B1) to a PT3.... And the flow difference is well before .5" of lift. Then again my ports have been modified and I am running larger valves with modified combustion chambers. Those are the reason that I went with the PT3. It has lots of room to move, where as the B1/B2 heads are restricted by the valve angles and the fact that the exhaust ports are liquid cooled.

The B1 is great for a DD with a few bolt-ons, an F23 IM swap or boosted application. However to keep it N/A and make reliable power your cheaper option would still be the PT3 for SOHC.

Yeah thats from the larger valves and altered combustion chambers.

In OEM form the very clear benefit happens around right at .5 lift. Im sure with larger valves and modified CC anything is possible, and the f22a is for sure the overall higher flowing cylinder head.


Its just that the majority of builds are NOTHING compared to yours. The majority of builds will never see anything more aggressive than a delta 272 which is like a .389/.409 lift.

To get into .500 territory a LOT has to be done in the head. There are surely people with builds that warrant the need, but, to the masses it just doesn't apply.


The Bisi level 2 cam has a lift of .400/.372- peaking that cam out has proven to start making the N/A car(s) less DD'able. I can't imagine a .500 lift on an I4 that is also intended for regular street driving.



So, I guess what the point of all of this is for is to both acknowledge that yeah, the f22a has a greater potential and yeah, most people don't build anything that even warrants that potential in the first place.

The F22B1 is a very good choice for turbo, though. Granted, forged internals in an otherwise bone-stock F22B1 would likely be able to produce enough power with a proper turbo system to be near the limits of a street-driven FWD car.

Biggest benefit in my mind is for boost, no questioning that.


More street friendly and still around 300whp is what I am shooting for.

['93CB7Ex]

^ Glad you got that hookup, yo.

Wasn't really a hookup. It sat for 2.5 years lol. Didn't know if it was good

[GhostAccord]

So, I guess what the point of all of this is for is to both acknowledge that yeah, the f22a has a greater potential and yeah, most people don't build anything that even warrants that potential in the first place.

I'll agree with that!




























P.S. The F23A1 out flows the B1 at low lift as well..... just thought that I'd throw that out there!

[deevergote]

So, I guess what the point of all of this is for is to both acknowledge that yeah, the f22a has a greater potential and yeah, most people don't build anything that even warrants that potential in the first place.
for.

That is 100% true!
Honestly, for anyone to even come close to maxing out the potential of either engine, they'll have to be using it in a race car anyway. By the time the real differences come into play, the engine won't be suitable for street use anymore.

Biggest benefit in my mind is for boost, no questioning that.


More street friendly and still around 300whp is what I am shooting for.

Yeah, 300whp is certainly attainable with nothing more than forged guts and a properly designed turbo system on pretty much ANY H or F series engine. I'd even go so far as to say it could be done on stock sleeves, if done carefully (and I'd argue that the early-model H22A blocks with the closed deck would be the optimal choice for that... all F22 engines that I'm aware of are an open deck design.)

[pninja82]

Good reading in this thread from everyone.I had a rebuilt f22b1 with basic mods, mated to a prelude tranny, running off a chipped po6 and loved it.I always wanted an H22 so naturally,I jumped on one when the offer came.I have no complaints about the setup I had.I put it to the test against several f22a's and never lost.Still,Im intrigued by what an f22a can do with h23 manifold,cam etc..I may work on one as a backup engine since I sold the b1.I honestly dont see all the fuss either concerning this engine.

[deevergote]

Without taking the engine apart, the F22B1 will pretty much always beat the F22A with similar bolt-ons. It's only when the F22A head has had considerable work done that it proves to be the superior design.

[SOHC-FTW]

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showpost...82&postcount=9

Flow numbers thats been around awhile.

[deevergote]

People love to point out that the F22A head doesn't flow well in stock form. Any supporter of the F22A head (that isn't just regurgitating what they've heard from others without thinking for themselves) knows that the stock F22A head isn't superior to anything.

[toycar]

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showpost...82&postcount=9

Flow numbers thats been around awhile.

I've seen that. Doesn't really reflect on the f22b1 though

[SOHC-FTW]

Well post the chart, i doubt it be much different.

[toycar]

Well post the chart, i doubt it be much different.

I can when I get home(in Cali right now)

The flow numbers I have are not for OEM ports, but I can get that no problemo.


I made 297.4 cfm at .5 lift with 1mm+ valves and a pretty basic port and polish job.


Plenty of flow to make power with.


The f23 has the same size combustion chamber, intake ports and valves(both sides). Not really sure if the exhaust ports are different. Haven't looked into that.

Anyways, they flow very similar.






F22a still pwns when you get dirty with the build, but for people with smaller ambitions they may get better performance out of the other "F" series bastard child.

Remember the f22a was a bastard POS platform forever too-until someone did something with it.

[SOHC-FTW]

You're saying the intake side of a b1 is the same as a F23? don't think they are, i recall the f23 being much larger close if not bigger than a F22A. I tinkered with a b1, delta 272, ported b1 IM, ported head, heat shielding gasket, bbp header, exhaust, sri it ran decent.

[toycar]

You're saying the intake side of a b1 is the same as a F23? don't think they are, i recall the f23 being much larger close if not bigger than a F22A. I tinkered with a b1, delta 272, ported b1 IM, ported head, heat shielding gasket, bbp header, exhaust, sri it ran decent.

I mean I've been starring at these two side by side for quite a while. The design is insanely similar if not identical. F23 Intake mani swaps directly and alligns just fine. I cleaned up and gasket matched the ports but it didn't look anything out of the ordinary for a typical gasket match jobby.

I honestly haven't measured the ports myself though.


And the flow sheet has before numbers on it, so it should show close to oem. I did the initial gasket match before any other work, so that much was altered



Pic of f22b1 on left and f23 on right-note the difference in egr systems for confirmation of either manifold. Pulled pic from H-tech





Im not going to go so far as to say the ports are identical, I don't factually know that I haven't measured. BUT, they are pretty damn close to the naked eye-right? I did a basic gasket match job and didn't notice much of anything out of the ordinary in the process.

I do feel like the ports are identical but you know how the interwebs are serious business and all and I would hate to find out my naked eye failed to identify .006 of a mm difference or something. And you know thats exactly what will happen if I come out and say that they are 100% identical.


lol




The intake manifold, in my opinion, is why the f22b1 gets such a bad wrap. Period, end of story. The cylinder head flows plenty to make tons of power. The intake only vtec is more a cam problem than a function problem. If you think about it, the f22a(just as an example) has made tons of power right? I mean there are guys on the board making 600whp on boosted app's. The f22a's exhaust ports flow like terds down a river and people make plenty of power on them.

SO the no-vtec on the exhaust side of the f22b1 shouldn't really matter that much. Im sure the benefits are clear and to say it doesn't matter at all would be silly. But, you can work around that is all I am saying. The ports will allow the engine to breathe. Im sure it flows AT LEAST as good as the f22a on the exhaust side and people make plenty of power running those ports. Im sure the overall potential is still greater on the f22a, but I think I am making a pretty solid case for the f22b1 for people that aren't going balls deep into a build but want a little pep at their foot.



And the f22b1 also uses roller rockers in its vtec system.


Just sayin, there are plenty of good things to be said about the f22b1.

[GhostAccord]

The F22B1 and F23A1 have identical port geometry on the intake side..... It is the runners, plenum and throttle body that are the difference. The F22B1 has long small diameter runners right up to the tiny plenum and 55mm throttle plate. Where as the F23A1 IM has shorter runners that open up into a larger plenum and a 58mm throttle plate....


and the issue with the VTEC is the cam.... it has three different intake lobe heights. The primary (non VTEC) lobes are 2 different heights. One opens fully and the other only opens the valve high enough to keep fuel from puddling behind the valve seat. Then once VTEC is engaged both valves run off the same VTEC lobe height and open fully. This is why people say that the F22B1 & F23A VTEC is for fuel economy.

You could get a re-weld or custom ground cam and get rid of this easy enough.

[toycar]

and the issue with the VTEC is the cam.... it has three different intake lobe heights. The primary (non VTEC) lobes are 2 different heights. One opens fully and the other only opens the valve high enough to keep fuel from puddling behind the valve seat. Then once VTEC is engaged both valves run off the same VTEC lobe height and open fully. This is why people say that the F22B1 & F23A VTEC is for fuel economy.

You could get a re-weld or custom ground cam and get rid of this easy enough.

Pretty much my thoughts as well.