Seems interesting but I love my H.
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Originally posted by toycar -
As per www.car-part.comOriginally posted by jhoff_cb7 View Post
2007 Acura MDX 3.7L is 3000USD decent for a 300hp OEM motor.
2008 Honda Accord 3.5L is 2500CAD
2008 Acura TL Type-S 3.5L motor 2500USD
2006+ Acura TL Type-S 6-speed Transmission 1750CAD
DEVOTE
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FS: Lokuputha's Stuff
"It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow."-The Smartest Man In The World
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car from the magazine
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hey guys, i haven't been keeping up with this thread so i don't know if this has already been posted, but heres some info on the v6 swap from honda tuning magazine.
http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/t...wap/index.html
enjoyComment
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has anyone been to v6performance.net? They have a lot of info on these motorsComment
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Don't know if anyone knew this or not (I didn't), but the J series is also used in Honda's marine engines, as are apparently the F23 and K24.
Here is a cool video about the induction system:
http://www.honda-marine.com/DisplayV...Dual_Stage.wmv
The first thing that I thought was cool is that it puts the compactness of the J series into perspective. It is essentially standing vertically, with the place where the crank pulley would normally be pointed straight up, and the place where the flywheel would be pointed straight down. You can see from the guy in the video that it is very compact, and if it were light enough could be bear hugged and picked up without much issue.
About the IM itself.
It should be noted that the V6 dual stage intake manifold works on a different principle than the 2 stage IM on the F22A6 and H22. The H22 uses a setup with a constant plenum volume and different runner lengths/sizes to achieve more flow, whereas the J series dual stage IM uses a variable plenum volume but common runners.
On the H series, the long but smaller diameter runners are open at low RPM's to ensure better torque and still maintain velocity. At a certain RPM, the butterflies open, exposing the shorter, higher volume runners which allows the IM to maintain flow and velocity as engine RPM increases.
On the J series, the butterflies are closed at low RPM's essentially making more effective use of resonance tuning by keeping the airflow for the two banks seperate. At higher RPM's the butterflies open, giving all cylinders access to all of the air volume. This reduces flow restriction and allows the cylinders to draw in more air, albeit through the same runners they always used.
The reason they are slightly different, is that the H series manifold allows you to gain low RPM torque and high RPM horsepower over a conventional single runner system. Based on principle of operation, it has more flexibility because it theoretically allows you to move the powerband in both directions, by changing runner length and flow capability.
The J series manifold on the other hand is mostly identical to a single stage IM (like those on the 03-07 auto V6's), so it doesn't produce additional low end torque over the regular IM, as the F22 and H manifold does. But, at high RPM's when the butterflies open, it allows more flow than the single stage IM which effectively extends the powerband in the top end. If you look at a J series dyno plot of single stage vs dual stage, you would see that the dual stage IM continues to make power and torque about 700RPM longer than the single stage, even though the bottom end curves are pretty much identical. The 03-07 auto J series starts to drop off on the torque curve just prior to 5500 RPM, while the dual stage engines start to drop off at about 6000-6200. You also notice this when driving the two engines, as you can feel the single stage engines start to struggle for air above 6200 RPM, whereas the dual stage engines feel like they could use another 500-1000RPM when they smack the 7100RPM rev limit.Last edited by owequitit; 06-20-2009, 02:37 PM.Comment
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From the 1997 Car and Driver New Import Car Issue (November 1996) in reference to the then new J30A1 that debuted in the 1997 Acura CL:
"Acura is bringing its first U.S.-designed-and-built V-6 to market this year in the 3.0CL coupe. Claims to fame include its VTEC valvetrain-the first in any mass produced V-6- and its physical dimensions, which make it lighter and smaller than any other 3.0 V-6.
This all new 60-degree engine is not derived from any previous 90-degree Acura V-6. Particular attention was paid to keeping the external dimensions small, enabling the engine to fit into a wide variety of upcoming vehicles. To shorten the crank, the connecting rods are three millimeters narrower than those in the original 2.7-liter Legend V-6, and a slimmer dual-mass crankshaft damper pulley was designed. Special low-profile pistons and a compact four-piece intake manifold result in a total engine height that is 55mm (2.16 inches) shorter than the Infinity 3.0L, and the SOHC cylinder heads mean this engine's total width is 80mm (3.15 inches) smaller from bank to bank than the DOHC Lexus V-6's. It's also 15 pounds lighter than either of those engines.
The V-6's VTEC system varies the intake-valve timing and lift in much the same way as in the 2.2CL's VTEC four-cylinder. At low speeds, each cylinder's two intake valves open independently and with asymmetrical lift to induce swirl for increased burn speed, more stable combustion, and more internal exhaust gas recirculation. Then at 3500 RPM, the two cam followers are connected (via a small, hydraulically operated pin coupling) to a third follower that rides on a high-lift, longer-duration cam lobe that has been optimized for high-RPM operation. The result is a broad torque curve and high specific output - 200 horsepower at 5500 RPM, 195 lb-ft of torque at 4700 RPM - and EPA fuel-economy figures of 20 mpg city/28 highway. Despite the use of solid lifters, the engine needs no major servicing for the first 100,000 miles."
I found that interesting. Obviously, since that article was written, the engine was stretched through 3.2,3.5, and 3.7 liters, HP went from 200HP to 305 HP and significant revisions in the heads, intake manifold and exhaust design have been undertaken. The newer versions also utilize magnesium IM's to lower the weight of the engine.Last edited by owequitit; 06-20-2009, 02:42 PM.Comment
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Glad to see this thread still around.
In terms of range of application and variation of motors, the J-series is all over the board. I didnt' know about their use in marine applications until you mentioned it. The fact that they've been able to take the engine themselves and go from 200 to over 300 HP is amazing. I don't think we've seen enough J-series builds across the tuner world to realize how well it would react to simple bolt ons. The K-series, due to the wide use and applications, has been seen to react incredibly to simple things like I/H/E. I wonder if the J would do the same or whether it will be an engine more difficult to squeze power out of. Then again, people may be satistfied with the engine as is once it's dropped in. I've seen one of these things stuffed in a civic and that thing pulled like a monster. I imagine it would work similarly well in our chassis. Oh well, just a matter of time before someone with enough balls and money decides to do it.
Originally posted by Maple50175Comment
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It is highly likely that they may have actually gain more than 105HP. That is what Honda is rating them at, but I suspect some are under-rated, and KNOW others are.Originally posted by Tnwagn View Post
For instance, the original J30A1 could be expected to lay down 150-160WHP, which was consistent with its power rating through an auto tranny. The J30A4 was rated 40HP higher (same displacement) and was putting nearly an additional 50HP to the wheels also through an auto tranny. It seems to have consistently been rated a little closer to 250-260HP. The J35 in the last TL-S is another good example. It was rated at 286HP, but was delivering closer to 300 based on its 250-255WHP numbers. Same with the current Accord V6 coupe. I have not seen a dyno of the TL SH-AWD yet, but suspect it might be slightly under rated as well.
Also, as far as getting power out of them? Not a problem. On the newer integrated exhaust versions (2003 Accord and any full model change after), down pipes, cats, catback exhaust, J pipe (essentially a full exhaust system), and a cold air intake and TB spacer usually delivers anywhere from 40-50 WHP. The J30A1 would gain 30-40 WHP from a similar set of bolt-ons as well. I have seen supercharged and tuned J30A4's (you can find them on Youtube and V6P.net) that with 5 PSI boost and little to no tuning were doing between 270-310WHP with a tune. They have an identical stroke to the K20, so with proper construction could probably rev high, and if you start working the heads and cams, I am sure you could get one to do plenty of damage.Comment
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True, Honda has been under rating their engines quite a bit as of late.
I didn't know that such gains had been made on J's with such simple modifications. That's pretty impressive. The supercharged ones I've seen have been nothing short of quick, that's for sure. I'm just not sure I could stand the sound of the dying cat every time you get on it.
Originally posted by Maple50175Comment
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good ol' J-series.DEVOTE
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FS: Lokuputha's Stuff
"It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow."-The Smartest Man In The World
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LOL man what are you talking about? thats the sweetest soundOriginally posted by Tnwagn View PostComment
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some hefty reading 29 pages...whew
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