J30A1 - 3.0L V6 VTEC anybody?

[tehpr3chr]

the crnsx...about an hour down the road from me here in GA

[HenRoc]

exactly. and I appreciate this discussion and all the tips I'm getting -- there's no question about us dropping in the J30A block - and It's not getting done 'til next summer - meanwhile I need to work on planning everything, b/c this car is going to be sick when I'm done with her

Thanks for bringing up cooling issues - I hadn't thought of it myself - i guess i was too hung up on the mounts themselves

dwf - thank you for seeing on my level the point of the engine -- like i said before if i wanted easy or if i just wanted a racecar... hell I'd have DROPPED an H22 in by now ... and once again, we wouldn't be having this discussion

...maybe I'm a little retarded (well yeah i am) but I'm confused as to why you keep talking about 5gen's? I guess just as comparison? Because the J30A1 comes out of a 6gen 98 LX

also by your diagrams, accrdkid -- i guess what that's showing me for sure is what dwf mentioned -- that i might have problems fitting in accessories... etc -- both motors are fwd motors so width-wise.... well the v6 is gonna fit into the cb7 -- thanks for those pics, btw - are they from chilton?

so I'm gonna have to start concentrating on cooling issues and motor mounts first and foremost (i'm not worried about wiring/ ecu yet -- i want to focus on the mechanics of it first)

In figuring this out too - keep in mind that I am also redesigning the cosmetics of the car... most especially the exterior which will have a custom wide-body kit (I'll post up some sketches someday soon) so air dams, hood vents... all that stuff will be feasible

thanks again for all your input, guys - I await more insight : )

Its all gravy. Actually I snagged that diagram because some kid had asked about the specifications and another member posted the picture.

Yeah the cooling setup is gonna be a number one priority..the other thing that I failed to mention was how the tranny would be able to fit.

It does require alot of custom work..the reason for the diagram was for the comparisons on the 5th gen 4cyl and 6cyl models..and the 4th gen being somewhat similar (at least engine bay dimensions) to the 5th gen I showed it just to give you an idea of what you'd be dealing with.

Good luck with the swap though and I hope the diagram helped.

[i'm the girl]

hey yeah - im gonna have both cars all week while the husband's away sooo.... ill be doing me some measuring weee..... :

diagram was helpful too thanks -

tehpr3chr - ok so its in theback half of a CRX I need to fit this into the front clip of my cb7... are the dimensions similar? <forgive me for sounding stupid but i don't know a damn thing about the crx beyond brand identification>
and I bet that little thing hauls some MAJOR ass --

[CoPilot1]

first off, i applaud you for trying something that, to my knowledge, has never been done. second, i dont think there will be too much trouble fitting the 3.0 in your engine bay other than motor mounts, clearing the accessories, etc. but like people have said, anything is possible. good luck with it and keep us informed....i feel the need to post my project.....

[kamaccord]

Do a search on Honda-tech www.honda-tech.com

That forum will probably be alot more helpful.

[tehpr3chr]

as far as i know, that crnsx sux...they could never really get it to get good traction...i know that for the price it cost they coulda built a very mean cb7 w/ h22a...sad...and there's a firewall in front of the motor, lol, so ur def. not looking in the rearview!

[dwf137]

^^ Now do you think I know nothing?

Or am I still rattling off information...? Ive read the entire book of Chiltons manual on the Accord including the Prelude. So I do know my shit.

The 4th and 5th gens have basically the same engine bay dimensions..(although I could be wrong). If you can find a technical drawing of the 98 Chassis do a comparison.

no, i dont think you know nothing but when you started saying 2.3L and things like that I got very wary of everything you said.

I see the axles coming off of the tranny being a the biggest pain in the ass. I would imagine that the wheelbase on the 98 will be much wider then a cb7, and I'm also imagining that the tranny will sit in a different spot and have different dimensions then the h22/f22 engines in a cb7...

A thicker radiator and maybe some faster, more powerfull fans should do the trick as far as cooling. Another probelm will be the exhaust setup, That would need to be kept off of the j30 or be custom made, due to the dual headers..

Another thing I might be worried about is, is this thing going to fit under the actual hood, height wise? There's a lot of stuff on top of the engine for the intake and whatnot, H22's have a hard time fitting under it if you keep the power steering pump.

[i'm the girl]

any additional help/ insight would be greatly appreciated -- and thanks for all the help and good words, so far

I'll keep you all up to date on the progress

thanks again

[owequitit]

The engine fitting height wise is a risk, I agree. You will just have to figure it out. Nothing CF can't fix anyway. Maybe just raising the center of the hood the the JDM EF? (88-91) Civics would work.

As far as cooling goes, I would be wary that just a thicker radiator will work. It will also be necessary, yes, but the problem is going to come from the fact that the engine will be so close to the radiator, that all of the air that gets sucked through the radiator by the low pressure area in the engine compartment isn't going to have anywhere to go. If the air does not have the ability to effectively flow through the bay, then you can have a radiator for a Mack Truck and it won't work. That is why Honda extended the engine bay on the 5th gen Accord, and didn't just put in a thicker radiator. That is also one of the reasons that cars with really really tight engine bays are more likely to overheat at low speeds. As the car accelerates, there is enough pressure differential to create the flow regardless of compartment size. A McClaren F1 will overheat in Arizona unless it is running 60+ because the aerodynamics and cooling airflow weren't optimized for low speeds. It tops 130 where I live, so I have a lot of experience watching cars overheat (even owned a few, but not a Honda, unless there were other issues). Aerodynamic knowledge is also a bit of a job requirement, plus it fascinates me.

I am not completely convinced that the axles will be so difficult. The 6th gen shares a lot of components with our cars in the suspension etc. The engine and tranny for the 4 banger were also almost, if not completely identical externally. Honda wised up about the time our cars were designed, and started using common mounting points etc. on the frames of the cars. While the mounting points aren't interchangable in your application, the geometries may be. I guess to make a long story short, they had to make an engine almost identical to yours line up in the 98-02 Accord 4 cylinder. They also had to make the V6 line up with most of those same points (like the knuckles) so that it would minimize manufacturing cost and allow them to use an identical chassis (which the 5th gen V6 did not). If it doesn't just line up, then some combination of hybrid parts may very well work. Look how many other Honda parts line up. NSX calipers bolt right up to our cars for cryiing out loud. It is at least worth looking into.

There are also several companies that will make axles to suit your needs for a pretty reasonable price.

Can't really think of anything else now, but maybe later.

[i'm the girl]

The engine fitting height wise is a risk, I agree. You will just have to figure it out. Nothing CF can't fix anyway. Maybe just raising the center of the hood the the JDM EF? (88-91) Civics would work.

As far as cooling goes, I would be wary that just a thicker radiator will work. It will also be necessary, yes, but the problem is going to come from the fact that the engine will be so close to the radiator, that all of the air that gets sucked through the radiator by the low pressure area in the engine compartment isn't going to have anywhere to go. If the air does not have the ability to effectively flow through the bay, then you can have a radiator for a Mack Truck and it won't work. That is why Honda extended the engine bay on the 5th gen Accord, and didn't just put in a thicker radiator. That is also one of the reasons that cars with really really tight engine bays are more likely to overheat at low speeds. As the car accelerates, there is enough pressure differential to create the flow regardless of compartment size. A McClaren F1 will overheat in Arizona unless it is running 60+ because the aerodynamics and cooling airflow weren't optimized for low speeds. It tops 130 where I live, so I have a lot of experience watching cars overheat (even owned a few, but not a Honda, unless there were other issues). Aerodynamic knowledge is also a bit of a job requirement, plus it fascinates me.

I plan on designing a custom kit anyway, which includes widebody fenders front and back - is there anything i can take into consideration, designwise, that will help with the cooling, since i obviously cant just go stretching my car out

p.s. You don't need to tell me twice about cooling issues... im a closet vw lover

[arrozburner]

i would think adding an oil cooler, tranny cooler, upgraded radiator with slim fans and a switch to turn them on will all help with reducing heat...as for designs with the kit, the design of the front bumper will be crucial in reducing heat...alot of open spaces with scooped ends to direct incoming air will help in cooling...maybe adding vents on the front fenders to let heat out through there will also help (which the wide body will cover these vents so you wont just have a whole there)...vented hood would be great too...i have one and i could see how the heat just flows out through there

[owequitit]

Arroz has some good points. On a mostly stock engine, I don't think the coolers will really be necessary. It wouldn't hurt as long as had a thermostat to keep the oil from getting too cold.

The openings in the front of the car are probably more than adequate if you get the air out. The two major things you will want to do to accomplish this is to put vents in the hood. Either one large central one, or two smaller ones, just like you will see on most aftermarket CF hoods. Just make sure that the vents open towards the rear of the car, so that the lower pressure of the air flowing over the car will actually draw the air out of the compartment. This will help tremendously.

The second thing you want to do is to build an airdam underneath the nose just like on a Firebird or Corvette. Make sure it is mounted in front of the opening under the engine compartment (just behind the crossmember). This will create a low pressure area behind the airdam helping to pull hot air out from underneath the car. It will also help offset the increase in drag caused by your body kit.

There are several other things that you can do, and I will post them, but in small peices.

[i'm the girl]

yeah - well my husband already started making an oil cooler for his motor anyway - so we might use it

Airdams are a mystery to me, but that's why Im planning and researching now - so when I'm ready to go then I'm ready to go

[owequitit]

Airdams are actually very simple. It is basically just a peice (usually flexible plastic) that runs across the car ahead of the front wheels. Because it more or less "dams" off the area between the two front wheels, it reduces the amount of air flowing under the car, which is why it reduces drag. As a rule of thumb, the less air that flows under the car, the less drag you will have. That is really where body kits and stuff came from, but most aftermarket ones are there more for appearance than anything. You can also design the underside of the car to create downforce, but that is another topic entirely.

Because it limits the amount of flow under the car, there will be higher air pressure on the front side of the dam as opposed to the rear. That is the low pressure area that gets created by the air dam. Because there is higher pressure in front of the radiator also, air will be forced to flow through the radiator to the low pressure area under the car and over the car. This will cause a lot of flow out through the hood on top, and out through the opening on the bottom, pulling most of the heat out with it. At idle and really low speeds, with a thicker radiator and some good electric fans, you should be ok because Honda's run very cool at idle anyway as long as everything works right. As your power levels and speeds increase, generating more heat, the airflow will take over and help to cool the car.

If you do run an oil cooler, be careful. Honda designed the oiling system with headroom on a stock or mostly stock engine. Your oil temps may never get high enough to justify an oil cooler, and if you just put in an oil cooler that is not temperature controlled, you may overcool the oil which will cause equally harmful damage as over heated oil. Did you ever hear about the sludge problem in Toyota V6s? The failures were caused because the oil temps never got hot enough to burn off the water that condenses on the oil when temps were cold. Cold oil also does not lubricate well. I think it needs to remain between about 250-350* F if I remember correctly.

The other thing I would absolutely recommend, is that when you make your custom exhaust system, I would make sure that you ceramic coat everything in the engine bay. It will help with emmisions (not that it will be an issue) and it will keep underhood temps down 20-30* from the stock exhaust and even 10-15* below polished stainless headers.

I am sure I will think of more, but I am trying to keep the posts from becoming books.

[i'm the girl]

thank you Thank You THANK YOU!!!!

creating downforce underneath the car... hmmm... oh shit Ill worry about that later : )

I hope you don't mind, but Im going to start printing this stuff out and adding it into my notebook ... this car will be BEAUTIFUL when she's done