im being outhandled by higher and softer rides

[GreenMadness]

its manufacturing. american companys are all about manufacturing and manufacturing the cheapest car really handicaps the preformance that would be possible.

each japaneses car has specific engineering for its purpose, not only that but its also required of plant workers to imporve the overall production process of the car.

when this happens you have alot more minds trying to come up with a solution, so america is out numbered when it comes to good automotive ideas.

Next is the tolerance, american standards, and japanesse standards are completly diffrent for building cars and engines. japanesse are producing a much more percise and exact car, so its already above the competition, because american regulations don't require as much precision american processing is normally sub-par in comparison.

those are the basic reasons why this has happened, why civics and miatas pull on vettes everyday at the track.

weight is the main reason why littler cars are running so well, once again manufacturing, america still likes boxed steel frames, and bolt on univeral boxed steel subframes. talk about heavy.... front end weight of a new impala is as much as a 95 civic, thats right just the front end weight.

[NAiL05]

its manufacturing. american companys are all about manufacturing and manufacturing the cheapest car really handicaps the preformance that would be possible.

each japaneses car has specific engineering for its purpose, not only that but its also required of plant workers to imporve the overall production process of the car.

when this happens you have alot more minds trying to come up with a solution, so america is out numbered when it comes to good automotive ideas.

Next is the tolerance, american standards, and japanesse standards are completly diffrent for building cars and engines. japanesse are producing a much more percise and exact car, so its already above the competition, because american regulations don't require as much precision american processing is normally sub-par in comparison.

those are the basic reasons why this has happened, why civics and miatas pull on vettes everyday at the track.

weight is the main reason why littler cars are running so well, once again manufacturing, america still likes boxed steel frames, and bolt on univeral boxed steel subframes. talk about heavy.... front end weight of a new impala is as much as a 95 civic, thats right just the front end weight.

I will have to disagree with soem of this. Manufacturing the cheaper car? Its a domestic product which makes it cheaper. If you go overseas for a v6 mustang its almost like 30g in japan....Any car produced in there homeland is going to be cheaper but not necessarily. Yes I agree some of the parts inside domestics are kinda not appealing but to say they are aiming for the cheapest way to build a car is false. Take the 350 for example. Why didnt GM change it for a long time? Its because the design works. I have to say American cars are slowly becoming more reliable but the asian counterparts are way ahead of there time because they put in the technology earlier. The americans are lagging behind a lil but inching up. Also the design aspect in america is "big" This is because if you go to other countries like japan and crap you have no room to fit a 78 Lincoln continental anywhere. You can barely fit some american muscle cars on the roads because of the width compared to the US with our big ass highways and such. Plus other areas have higher gas prices so it is impractical to buy a corvette z06 and romp it around the city unlike the US its like 2.66 or so for premium now compared to like 5 dollars or so if not more in everywhere else around the world...so yea. Because of gas and other factors this is why other countries develop more small/fuel efficient cars. For a while now americans have been experimenting with lighter smaller vehicles to cope with new emissions and the demand for hybrids and crap now. But IMO the american car companies are slowly gettin there but not there yet unlike other car companies. Plus with all these job cuts and crap its not helping them at all.

[GreenMadness]

i never said american companies where cheaper, but that IS why they have adopted the manufacturing system they use.

I was simply stating how the situation occured, it is documented fact that japanese came over and stole the american industrial process, they then reseached how to make it better and developed thier own system in the 70's and at first the cars didn't preform that well, they just happened to be porgressing fast than us.

we where using the technology that was origonally stolen, we are just now seeing the price of it, you have to realize that it takes time for actions to create reaction. the cars from japan that we love are a result of japan posessing better manufactureing and cheaper manufacturing before we did.

US has just caught on in the last decade and hasn't even become effective until the last 5 years, which is possibly too late.

when gm has to cut ash trays to save 5.5 million on car production but still can't get away from pushrods.... you have to wonder

But staying on topic: this is just one side, we are looking at the advantages which are that our accords have a good suspension and drivetrain layout. this makes our upgrades if planned and done right extremly effective.

on the downside, components are slightly more expensive, and undeniably we are driving tin cans compared to most of the domestic counterparts.


i have one therory on why this may be true, because our accord was the underdog at the time, and the 3rd gen was really something.... the honda name didn't get its reputation from thin air. When our accord was sold i belive it was close to $3,000 cheaper than the cavalier at the time. Honda had something to prove so you better belive that our cars had a lot more care put into the design than the "king" at the time

[owequitit]

I will have to disagree with soem of this. Manufacturing the cheaper car? Its a domestic product which makes it cheaper. If you go overseas for a v6 mustang its almost like 30g in japan....Any car produced in there homeland is going to be cheaper but not necessarily. Yes I agree some of the parts inside domestics are kinda not appealing but to say they are aiming for the cheapest way to build a car is false. Take the 350 for example. Why didnt GM change it for a long time? Its because the design works. I have to say American cars are slowly becoming more reliable but the asian counterparts are way ahead of there time because they put in the technology earlier. The americans are lagging behind a lil but inching up. Also the design aspect in america is "big" This is because if you go to other countries like japan and crap you have no room to fit a 78 Lincoln continental anywhere. You can barely fit some american muscle cars on the roads because of the width compared to the US with our big ass highways and such. Plus other areas have higher gas prices so it is impractical to buy a corvette z06 and romp it around the city unlike the US its like 2.66 or so for premium now compared to like 5 dollars or so if not more in everywhere else around the world...so yea. Because of gas and other factors this is why other countries develop more small/fuel efficient cars. For a while now americans have been experimenting with lighter smaller vehicles to cope with new emissions and the demand for hybrids and crap now. But IMO the american car companies are slowly gettin there but not there yet unlike other car companies. Plus with all these job cuts and crap its not helping them at all.

It is hard to argue with the American manufacturers quest for cheapness.

Go check out the junkyards to see what is littered all over. Cheaper built cars typically, not just domestics.

Sorry, but if you have dealt with a car from 1985-2005 (GM especially) the cheapness of build quality is evident. Sit in a 2001 Cavalier and a 2001 Civic Corrola and see which one is better built.

Or a Lumina vs and Accord or Camry or Altima.

Their interiors especially were crap, but a lot of stuff under the hood wasn't as high quality either. The plastics are cheaper, and dry out and break faster.

Where you would find a rubber vacuum line on Honda or Toyota, you are likely to find a brittle plastic tube on a GM.

They are getting better yes, but they still have a long way to go.

Not until the GTO have I actually sat in a GM and thought "wow, this is a pretty nice interior!"

Unfortunately for the domestics and their poor business plans over the last couple years, they are going to have to work 3X as hard and spend 10X as much money re-convincing people that they can build a good product, than they ever saved building a cheap one.

Another part of it is refinement and design. Every 4 to 5 years, a Japanese car is redesigned. It isn't necessarily a ground up new car, but it is a substantial refinement over the previous version.

Example: The Accord. Gen 1 and 2 are similar under the skin. Gen 3 was all new (new frame, new suspension design etc). Gen 4 was all new. Gen 5 was a refinement of Gen 4. Gen 6 was pretty much all new. Gen 7 is loosely based on gen 6, but in many respects it too is all new.

Gen 8 is rumored to be all new. We will have to see what is actually under the structure, but it may very well be.

The cavalier was based on the same platform from introduction to cancellation. That is around 20 years.

It is hard to build a competitive product when you don't change for 5 generations of your competitor...

The Japanese aren't exactly resting on their laurels, and they DID put a ton of time and money into those refinements, so not only does GM have 5 generations of refinements to conquer, they have to do it while chasing a moving target.

As far as the 350, one of the main reasons they kept it is because it is cheap. Sorry, but even they aren't coy about that.

It does have a few packaging benefits, but they aren't that substantial.

Here is a thought for you.

GM has proven they can get good power out of them. But if there aren't better designs, then why does Toyota's new 5.7L V8 make more power AND more torque than the Silverado's new 6.2L?

Just a thought.

[AccordWarrior]

Sorry, but if you have dealt with a car from 1985-2005 (GM especially) the cheapness of build quality is evident. Sit in a 2001 Cavalier and a 2001 Civic Corrola and see which one is better built.

Don't forget, maintence is a big deal. American cars are typically cheaper than their foreign counterparts, so people who don't care about cars are more likely to buy them. My Mom's 1986 Cavalier was at over 120K when she sold it, and it was reliable as all hell. Her Escort was crap though.

Not until the GTO have I actually sat in a GM and thought "wow, this is a pretty nice interior!"

It wasn't designed by American GM. It's a Holden Monaro. If you get a chance, look at the cars being built by Ford and Holden of Austrailia...turbo 6's with manual gear boxes, etc etc.

As far as the 350, one of the main reasons they kept it is because it is cheap. Sorry, but even they aren't coy about that.

That's catering to their market. Their main demographics want the small block V-8, because they people that buy those trucks have been buying them forever. My uncle was one of those people who bought nothing but Ford, until the technology came into play. He went and bought a Chevy because it appeared more like an old school motor.

If you have a motor that has thousands of aftermarket parts out there and is proven to work...why not keep it?

The truck market is a world away from the car market.

It does have a few packaging benefits, but they aren't that substantial.

Here is a thought for you.

GM has proven they can get good power out of them. But if there aren't better designs, then why does Toyota's new 5.7L V8 make more power AND more torque than the Silverado's new 6.2L?

Just a thought.[/QUOTE]

[GreenMadness]

The truck market is a world away from the car market.

Toyota's new 5.7L V8 make more power AND more torque than the Silverado's new 6.2L?

Just a thought.

DING DING DING.... the 350 is around because no other company has entered the ring in the last 40 years... toyota and honda are just now throwing punches in the truck world... and if GM isn't careful its not gonna take very many.

[GreenMadness]

i think i read somewhere that honda has a reputation of making cars that run forever not becuase they have good parts. but because they have good cars and people wont get rid of them.

[HondaB18]

i think i read somewhere that honda has a reputation of making cars that run forever not becuase they have good parts. but because they have good cars and people wont get rid of them.

But they do have good parts, may not be the best but they are engineered to be durable and work well as a package. People wouldn't get rid of their car because it lasts. Toyota is known for reliability over Honda.

[owequitit]

Don't forget, maintence is a big deal. American cars are typically cheaper than their foreign counterparts, so people who don't care about cars are more likely to buy them. My Mom's 1986 Cavalier was at over 120K when she sold it, and it was reliable as all hell. Her Escort was crap though.

Ahhh, but you assume I know nothing of domestics. Everyone in my extended family pretty much owns domestics exclusively. All of them. Ford, Chevy, Dodge.

I have seen NUMEROUS cars from each brand that were maintained by the book and still fell apart at less than 40K.

I have seen others that ran longer than they were supposed to. Yes, supposed to.

Example 1: My grandmother's 1995 Dodge Intrepid. Top of the line. Fully loaded. It overheated from day 1. By 10,000 miles, there was a dragging sound on one of the engine accessories, by 36,000 miles, all the suspension needed replaced and overhauled. It was maintained by the book and never raped. Ironically, lots of these litter the junkyard.

Example 2: 1996 Dodge Neon. By 45,000 miles, it had so many problems they junked it. Ironically, these litter the junkyard.

Example 3: 1986 Cavalier Z24. This car ran for 360,000 miles. Then the ECU went out. GM engineers told him that it couldn't have that many miles, because the car was designed to fall apart at 100K...

Sounds like a brand I want to buy...

Example 4: 1995 Chevy Lumina 3.1 Euro. Made it somewhere around 100K, and then started to have issues.

5: 1984 Trans Am. Not well maintained, but by 200: it had had 3 trannies, needed an engine and had all kinds of other broken stuff. It was somewhat neglected, but not that neglected.

6: 2000 Dodge Dakota. By 10K it decided it wanted to start having electrical issues. Like service 4WD errors on a 2wd truck.

7: 1988 Chevy Cheyenne. This truck was OK for about 40K, and then it started. This one was used, but taken care of. My grandpa loves his trucks. By 60K he had had it, and replaced it with a 1994.

The 1994 has been much better, but has still had some issues. It now has about 140K.

8: 1985 Mercury Grand Marquis. It was fine till about 60K when it started to have issues. My grandmother replaced it with the 1995 Intrepid.

9: 1998 Chrysler Concorde. By 50K it was falling apart. Litterally. Stuff would fall off of it driving down the road.

10: 2001 Intrepid. This replaced the gram's 1995 Intrepid (why she bought another, I will never know, well I know, but it was silly). It has 17K on it. Maintained by the book, just like the 1st one. No mechanical issues yet, but it is starting to make some funny noises, and body parts are starting to come loose. How abused can a car really get in 17K miles?

11: 1993 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins Turbo Diesel. My uncle owns this. He really has had not 1 problem with it, and the mileage is up there.

12: This prompted him to buy a 1997 Cummins Turbo Diesel. This one has not been as trouble free. It was mostly minor stuff though.

13: 1998 Chevy 2500 extended cab 4X4. By 50K this one was having all kinds of issues. With its first flat tire, 4 of the lugs snapped off, using the hand lug wrech that came with the truck...

I can keep going if you want...because there are more.

The fact of the matter is that most people I know with domestics, usually unload them at 100K or sooner, just as a matter of practice. If I even have to think about getting rid of a car at less than 200K, I start to get pissed off and doubt my purchase.

The real problem is they are spotty at best. This makes people leary about trusting them, and rightfully so.

It wasn't designed by American GM. It's a Holden Monaro. If you get a chance, look at the cars being built by Ford and Holden of Austrailia...turbo 6's with manual gear boxes, etc etc.

I know all about Holden and the GTO. But I had never seen one before. It at least demonstrated that somewhere out in the vast cosmos, GM DID actually have the ability. They just apparently don't have the desire. They have grown by leaps and bounds in the last year, but there is still cheap hard plastic, but at least they don't LOOK cheap. That is a good start.

I am actually fairly excited to see the new G8, especially the GTP with its 362HP small block. The Holden Commodore if you will.

And yes, the Ford Falcon is a sweet car. Especially when compared to the Taurus, Fusion and 500. Ironically, there shit down there actually lasts awhile too.

That's catering to their market. Their main demographics want the small block V-8, because they people that buy those trucks have been buying them forever. My uncle was one of those people who bought nothing but Ford, until the technology came into play. He went and bought a Chevy because it appeared more like an old school motor.

If you have a motor that has thousands of aftermarket parts out there and is proven to work...why not keep it?
The truck market is a world away from the car market.

Catering to their market is good. It is smart business. But that doesn't mean that it is a superior technology. Displacement for displacement, power for power, there are newer and better solutions.

Also, not only did Toyo's new V8 make more power and torque, it made both at lower RPM's.

I am sure you know as well as I do, that the LS1 and all subsequent revisions was a completely different engine than the original 350...

And yes the pickup truck market is a world away from the car market, but does that mean that they should just not make anything better because that is the way it has always been done? History will prove otherwise, especially with Toyota in the fray for reals now.

And honestly, domestics aren't cheaper because they want to be. GM is losing money on many many models. Do you think they do that by choice?

No, they do it because they have to. That is why they are trying to pick themselves up, so they don't have to resort to incentives and red ink to move product.

The problem is, that now that soooo many people have converted to Honda, Toyota, Nissan, it will take 10X as much effort to get them back, because they have no incentive to leave the new companies, because they build good stuff.

Why do you suppose Honda and Toyota are off the charts when it comes to customer loyalty? It isn't because the buyers of the product are stupid, I promise you that. Just like Lexus. People keep going back as much as they do, because they KNOW they are getting more than their money's worth.

I am not bagging on domestics from the standpoint that I hate them. I really wish they remove thier head from certain places, and get to it.

But until they do, it is a lost cause.

Even after they do, they are going to have to prove an ability to do it for more than a year or two. They are going to have to beat world class if they want to be world class.

Once they are world class, it will take people time to return. They won't just flood back overnight.

They CAN do it, the question is how bad do they want to?

[owequitit]

i think i read somewhere that honda has a reputation of making cars that run forever not becuase they have good parts. but because they have good cars and people wont get rid of them.

Honda's cars last so long because of efficient, simple, and over engineered design.

Typically, Hondas start to have age related issues in the 150K-200K realm. Little minor stuff. If their parts aren't better, then why don't they fall apart at 50-100K like most others?

Their parts ARE better. That is why when your original OEM alternator goes out at 200K, and you replace it with one from Autozone because you assume that it is the same, you will get the privledge of replaceing your alternator every 6 mos to a year after that in most cases.

Whereas, if you were to put a new Reman Honda alternator on there, it would go another 200-300K.

Since switching to OEM Honda replacement parts on our 8 Hondas, I have replaced exactly 1 part twice because it failed. That was a $2 Caliper seal. The new one hasn't failed yet.

I will argue that to the ends of the Universe, because I have used both frequently, and I know which ones consistently last longer.

They also last because of TQM (Total Quality Management).

Read Edward Demming's books on TQM if you really want to understand what it is.

It is a philosophy on how to do business. From the line worker to the CEO. A total company thought process.

The basis of it is Statistical quality control. We strive for 0 defects, and we don't stop or rest until we achieve it.

When we get to 1 failure in 100K, we push for 1 failure in 1 million. Then 1 failure in 100 million, and so on and so forth.

We will never reach 0 failures, but unless we try, we wont' get close either.

When you apply that philosophy to life, things just jump out at you because you are proactive instead of reactive. You don't wait until things get to the point where you have to justify your situation or existence.

You are constantly pushing yourself to improve, to see new and better ways to do things, to acquire new skills so that you are better than your competition.

It is the same with the car companies. Honda and Toyota are constantly looking for ways to make their product better, safer, more efficient, more reliable, easier to use, etc etc.

It was a lack of this though process that is going to cost GM the #1 worldwide spot this year.

For decades, they assumed "We're GM. We're the biggest, we're the best."

Whereas Toyota's process was, "In order to be the best, you have to beat the best."

GM rested on their laurels. Toyota did not. Honda did not. They understand that to stay on top, you have to work harder than those trying to catch you.

Time will tell whether or not Toyota can stay on top. Lexus has managed to do it, but they don't deal with the volume or variety that Toyota has to.

One thing is clear though, and has been for awhile now. The gap between first and last is getting narrower by the year.

Most companies still haven't caught Honda/Toyota on a long term durability/reliability basis, but they are getting closer.

[owequitit]

But they do have good parts, may not be the best but they are engineered to be durable and work well as a package. People wouldn't get rid of their car because it lasts. Toyota is known for reliability over Honda.

Not really. It is pretty much splitting hairs between the two. They are often so close together, that 1 recall can make the difference between the 2.

Toyota has had a troubled year this past year with something like 200 recalls. And some of them were major, like sludge causing engine failure.

If they don't tread lightly, Toyota won't by synonymous with reliability anymore.

[Turbo Dave]

lol im never owning a domestic again.

so back to my original question!

here is my new setup plan:

keeping the sprint extreme springs
im getting a an ES master bushing set
the rear shocks are stock, so im replacing those with bilstiens.
also going to purchase an ebay rear strut bar.

i dont really have the money to redo my whole suspension to be softer so im just going to get it to handle better, although i thihnk it will ride a bit smoother with the new bushings

what do you think?

[owequitit]

lol im never owning a domestic again.

so back to my original question!

here is my new setup plan:

keeping the sprint extreme springs
im getting a an ES master bushing set
the rear shocks are stock, so im replacing those with bilstiens.
also going to purchase an ebay rear strut bar.

i dont really have the money to redo my whole suspension to be softer so im just going to get it to handle better, although i thihnk it will ride a bit smoother with the new bushings

what do you think?

If you don't have the money to do it right the first time, then save yourself the effort and don't touch it.

It is bad enough that you have aftermarket front shocks and stock rears.

Spending more money on mismatching crap is going to leave you with something subpar, which is probably what you have now. Only what you have now doesn't cost money.

[Turbo Dave]

If you don't have the money to do it right the first time, then save yourself the effort and don't touch it.

It is bad enough that you have aftermarket front shocks and stock rears.

Spending more money on mismatching crap is going to leave you with something subpar, which is probably what you have now. Only what you have now doesn't cost money.

you think it would be better to get agx's in the back as well or just save my money and get coilovers? for the price of coilovers, i could get rear agx's and a rear strut bar

[owequitit]

you think it would be better to get agx's in the back as well or just save my money and get coilovers? for the price of coilovers, i could get rear agx's and a rear strut bar

Personally, if it were me, I would get Neuspeed Sports, a Neuspeed strut tower bar and either Tokico blues or Tokico Illuminas.

Honestly, the Tokicos are better than AGX, and they are as good as Koni, but cheaper. They walk the middle.

The Neuspeed strut tower bar because it actually DOES something, and the the Neuspeed Sports because they handle AND ride great with a nice drop without being too low.

The Tokico blues won't give you the damping adjustability of the Illuminas, but in all honesty, it will ride better than stock.

The Illuminas are either a little softer than the blue's on 1 or a little firmer on 2.

Of course I am biased. Of all the Honda suspensions I have dealt with, that is the only setup I would actually pay money for. That is why I did pay money for it.

As far as coilovers, they are overrated. You probably aren't going to adjust the ride height more than once anyway, and once they no longer are being adjusted, they are a waste of money.

My springs ($150) and shocks ($380) cost about 1/2 of what a good set of coilovers will cost, and I don't adjust the height anyway.

Of course you have an H22, so a Neuspeed strut tower bar for a CB7 won't work anyway.