im being outhandled by higher and softer rides

[owequitit]

This is true. Wasn't thinkin bout those at the time. But those are in older model cars though if I remember. Not sure of any in the newer vehicles. If I remember older bodied mustangs and camaros used to run it but I could be wrong.

The current Mustang has one.

[owequitit]

Traction bars and Panhards work wonders. If you're feeling froggy, you can run a Watts setup. Then you don't have to worry about anything but throttle/snap oversteer.

Yes, you can work around the limitations to a degree, just like you can with the CB7.

[NAiL05]

The current Mustang has one.

Really? I thought they woulda changed it by now. Guess its cheaper.

[203Cree]

Yes, you can work around the limitations to a degree, just like you can with the CB7.

I worked around it real easy. I decided to mod the CB, lol.

[owequitit]

Really? I thought they woulda changed it by now. Guess its cheaper.

According to Ford, it is what their "core customer" wanted.

At one point they had it designed with an IRS, but decided not to.

I imagine cost could have been a factor, but when you are producing several hundred thousand a year, the cost benefit for a live axle decreases somewhat.

Plus, now that they spent all that money perfecting the chassis (very loosely based on the Lincoln LS chassis), and are starting to think about some RWD sedans to compete with the new round of RWD sedans from GM, and the next gen from Chrysler, it would seemed to have made more sense to make IRS at least an option, because the potential annual production could be much higher.

I don't think a live axle RWD sedan will fly for $30K, which is about where it most likely will be priced.

[203Cree]

The last generation of Mustangs had a problem with snapping half shafts. Ford figured it'd be easier to put the live axle back there for a couple reasons. The main on being the overall weight of the new bodystyle. Lots of TQ + Lot's of mass + Axle hop from a dead stop = unhappy half shafts, lol.

[Turbo Dave]

The last generation of Mustangs had a problem with snapping half shafts. Ford figured it'd be easier to put the live axle back there for a couple reasons. The main on being the overall weight of the new bodystyle. Lots of TQ + Lot's of mass + Axle hop from a dead stop = unhappy half shafts, lol.

yeah i had to go pick mine up off of 436.

[CBAccordA4]

Adding to what Nail said, how can you you even compare cornering/handling from a high powered sports coupe thats RWD. A RWD naturally corners better due to more oversteer and less understeer traits alone. It would take alot of research and money in suspension setup to match the cornering of a RWD such as a S2000 or 350Z meaning corner entrance, cornering, and corner exit speeds. I have a Tein setup and I like it, not too hard not too soft. But I would propose a very stiff setup in the rear to get rid of the FF oversteer trait, and get rid of some weight in the front. Chill

[h22sparkle]

You keep on pushin the car to its limits like that without upgrading the chasis and rigidity of the car and your gonna kill yourself i relaly mean it this time. As much as you upgrade the suspension its still an accord buy the best suspension that you can an ditll probably handle a little better. Its still an accord you gotta remember while you may push the car with an upgraded suspension you cant overcome the cars natural characterisitcs.

[lokuputha]

I hear the Rousch mustangs have IRS....which supposedly handle pretty well....

[owequitit]

Adding to what Nail said, how can you you even compare cornering/handling from a high powered sports coupe thats RWD. A RWD naturally corners better due to more oversteer and less understeer traits alone. It would take alot of research and money in suspension setup to match the cornering of a RWD such as a S2000 or 350Z meaning corner entrance, cornering, and corner exit speeds. I have a Tein setup and I like it, not too hard not too soft. But I would propose a very stiff setup in the rear to get rid of the FF oversteer trait, and get rid of some weight in the front. Chill

Depends on the charachteristics. The Porshe 911 Turbo with a modified suspension my have ulitmately more grip, but it also has a nasty snap oversteer habbit.

It is like most other things in life, it is better to have lower limits that you can use, as opposed to have higher limits for bragging rights.

.94 G is not a small amount for a street suspension. On ANY car.

Most people can't handle a car at those grip levels anyway, so even if it has more, most will either 1) never see it 2) not be able to control it.

In all honesty, you should be on a RACETRACK before you even think about exploring those kinds of limits.

That isn't a full race suspension either.

Anyone who thinks FWD can't handle needs to read Grassroots Motorsports magazine.

In fact in their current $2007 challenge #2 in a field of over 100 cars was a FWD CRX.

Check out the auto X times.

It CAN be done.

Also, just a note about the Accord's handling ability. I don't know about anyone else's, but with just springs, shocks and a front strut tower bar, my car will sometimes display OVERsteer at the limit.

[NAiL05]

Depends on the charachteristics. The Porshe 911 Turbo with a modified suspension my have ulitmately more grip, but it also has a nasty snap oversteer habbit.

It is like most other things in life, it is better to have lower limits that you can use, as opposed to have higher limits for bragging rights.

.94 G is not a small amount for a street suspension. On ANY car.

Most people can't handle a car at those grip levels anyway, so even if it has more, most will either 1) never see it 2) not be able to control it.

In all honesty, you should be on a RACETRACK before you even think about exploring those kinds of limits.

That isn't a full race suspension either.

Anyone who thinks FWD can't handle needs to read Grassroots Motorsports magazine.

In fact in their current $2007 challenge #2 in a field of over 100 cars was a FWD CRX.

Check out the auto X times.

It CAN be done.

Also, just a note about the Accord's handling ability. I don't know about anyone else's, but with just springs, shocks and a front strut tower bar, my car will sometimes display OVERsteer at the limit.

Oh yea. Agreed. Thats why i watch the normal speed tv racing. Dunno what its called but TSX/RSX and all of the handling equally if not better than RWD vehicles. Really good stuff. FWD can handle it just depends on the right setup mainly. Plus I agree with you on the 911 turbos especially the older models. That rear end loves to get frisky. My friend dad used to have one before he sold it. It was that maroon color but it was quick!

[owequitit]

Oh yea. Agreed. Thats why i watch the normal speed tv racing. Dunno what its called but TSX/RSX and all of the handling equally if not better than RWD vehicles. Really good stuff. FWD can handle it just depends on the right setup mainly. Plus I agree with you on the 911 turbos especially the older models. That rear end loves to get frisky. My friend dad used to have one before he sold it. It was that maroon color but it was quick!

Yeah the Speed World Challenge series is pretty awesome.

The 3 series is an awesome car, but it DOES NOT dominate that series.

The lowly FWD TSX does. Even with the most "reward weight", they still couldn't keep them from winning.

I LOVE the 911. I always have, but yeah that habit gets a little nasty.

Apparently, the NSX can have some snap oversteer if you aren't careful too.

Car and Driver put one into a ditch back in a 1995 comparison test.

[m-tec93accord]

owequitit: i've been wondering, what makes a japanese car handle so well over more expensive and more-NAME BRAND vehicles

b/c i went to a track event and i saw rsx, crx, mini's(scion, fit, yaris), etc out-handle car that come track-ready from the factory

i literally saw an little eg hatch running on a vette and viper, the str8's were murder for the EG, but when a turn came up, it was though those higher-up car slowed down, and the EG just crept up to them. granted it took a few laps, but the EG evenutally passed them. the only thing it had was a k-series motor, roll-cage, and shock and spring combo

[owequitit]

owequitit: i've been wondering, what makes a japanese car handle so well over more expensive and more-NAME BRAND vehicles

b/c i went to a track event and i saw rsx, crx, mini's(scion, fit, yaris), etc out-handle car that come track-ready from the factory

i literally saw an little eg hatch running on a vette and viper, the str8's were murder for the EG, but when a turn came up, it was though those higher-up car slowed down, and the EG just crept up to them. granted it took a few laps, but the EG evenutally passed them. the only thing it had was a k-series motor, roll-cage, and shock and spring combo

It is a bunch of factors.

1) Weight. CRX's EG's etc are light. My EG used to weigh less than 2100lbs, stock.

Weight is the enemy because of inertia. Less weight can handle better, even if everything else stays the same.

2) Chassis design. Hondas typically have very stiff chassis for their weight and cost. Usually, a few strut tower bars will get you all the rigidity you really need. Cars like the CRX and EG have been raced for so long though, you can get all kinds of setups to stiffen those.

3) Design. People always assume FF is worse than FR, but that isn't necessarily true. If the FF car has a superior suspension design, and all the factors are optimized to work together, then it is possible for the FF car to handle better.

MOST Hondas have double wishbone suspension at all four corners, or double wishbone up front and multi-link in the rear. This is uncommon at some of Honda's price points (base stripper EG hatch for example), because it is more costly to produce. The upside is that the suspension geometry maximizes the amount of tire contacting the road under all circumstances. More grip = better handling.

F1 cars use essentially double wishbone/multilink setups.

Hondas by virtue of design also have TONS of suspension travel, especially when compared to most other economy cars. You can't lower a Neon much more than an inch without running out of travel. It is the same with many Nissans.

I have seen many Hondas that are tucking tire, and still pretty much ride like stock.

Here is where lower isn't always better. On a perfectly level, smooth track, we can get really low because we don't need much travel.

On a road coarse, or a rougher track, or one with lots of dips and hills, the travel is more important than riding lower.

We always want to ride as low as we can, but if we have to choose one, we would want travel.

That is where Honda's travel is nice. We can get really low, and still have plenty of travel.

The newer RSX and Civic both have strut front suspension for cost reasons, but BMW has been making struts handle awesome for decades, so again it is a matter of design and optimization.

4) Power. There is this misconception that pure power will win any race. In most cases that is true.

Until we have lots of tight turns.

As you have seen, the EG hatch caught and passed cars that were far more powerful. How?

It was able to maintain more speed through the turns.

An EG doesn't have a lot of power, but it CAN easily achieve 100+ MPH. As long as we are cornering below that, then power isn't going to win the race. Keeping our speed up in the turns is.

If you have a 900 HP car that can only negotiate a turn at 60MPH, and you have lots and lots of turns, it WILL eventually get passed by a car that can maintain 65MPH through those same turns.

That is what you saw.

On anything with any kind of straight, an EG would probably get murdered, simply because even with a K swap, it isn't going to accelerate as well at speed as say a Z06.

However, a properly setup EG with a K20 can pretty easily be a 13 second car, which isn't slow.

My stock EG with a stock non-VTEC D16 has currently run a best time of 15.3 consistently. With 115HP or so.

Combine faster cornering speeds with adequate power and lots of turns, and you have a chance.

There is an RSX down in Phoenix that road races, and it OWNS everything. It is THE fastest car on the track with 220HP.

And yes, he races against Z06's, 911s and all kinds of other prepped hardware.

People who actually follow or watch lots of road racing know that they can be VERY competitive.

Sure it is an ego blow to the owner of the supercar, but that doesn't change reality any.