Upgraded brakes/suspension makes u slower

[GhostAccord]

93 EX Accord OEM prices from Honda Parts Deals.com (not a kit just springs and struts)

Front Springs (RISSC)
L & R 51401-SM1-A22 - $119.50

Front Struts/shock absorber
RF 51605-SM1-A02 = $94.27
LF 51606-SM1-A02 = $94.27

Rear Springs
L & R 52441-SM1-A05 (Rockwell) = $180.66
L & R 52441-SM4-A05 (Mitsoboshi Seiko = $68.98

Rear struts/shock absorbers
L & R 52611-SM1-A12 - $97.12

+Shipping

Your not going to get much of a quality setup for $450 if you are looking for front and rear. I would say that if you can buy a complete suspension (spring & strut) kit for under $450. You'll be buying another set in a year or two. My original Honda struts and springs are still going after 15 years. I realize your probably not going to own the car for that long but you should base your purchase on how log you intend to keep the car on the road.

I try to be selective when believing what I watch on TV. For that one show saying upgrades slowed down their car. There are a 4-5 other racing related programs that show how a properly tuned suspension and brake setup will shave time off your laps...... Depends on the quality of the product and how they are installed.............. Just throwing parts on your car will probably slow it down though.

[ATS666]

Big brakes can and will slow a car down and even lower MPG.

More rotating mass (unless dedicated drag brakes which are super light) and bigger surface area of the pad which equals more drag.

A suspension that is too stiff is no good. If you are lifting the inner tire on turns or close to it then it's too stiff.


BTW I didn't watch any of the vids so if this is out to lunch then please disregard.

[mndude07]

Big brakes can and will slow a car down and even lower MPG.

More rotating mass (unless dedicated drag brakes which are super light) and bigger surface area of the pad which equals more drag.

A suspension that is too stiff is no good. If you are lifting the inner tire on turns or close to it then it's too stiff.


BTW I didn't watch any of the vids so if this is out to lunch then please disregard.

More rotating mass eats horsepower, yes...however you can brake later and for less time, which results in a faster car on the track if we're talking about circuit racing (autocross, roadrace, etc) provided the brakes are, in fact better.

Also, you want to load up the outside tire on a fwd. If you aren't you're probably doing it wrong. One tire reaching peak grip is better than two that aren't doing much for you. It really depends on the situation, and it isn't fair nor true to make a generalization like that.

[ATS666]

More rotating mass eats horsepower, yes...however you can brake later and for less time, which results in a faster car on the track if we're talking about circuit racing (autocross, roadrace, etc) provided the brakes are, in fact better.

Also, you want to load up the outside tire on a fwd. If you aren't you're probably doing it wrong. One tire reaching peak grip is better than two that aren't doing much for you. It really depends on the situation, and it isn't fair nor true to make a generalization like that.

Yes it's true you can brake later and for less time IF your tires are sticky enough.

I agree that the outside tire is the one that gets loaded most.

I should have specified that lifting the REAR inner tire on turns is no good and that would be too stiff.

[gloryaccordy]

Yes it's true you can brake later and for less time IF your tires are sticky enough.

I agree that the outside tire is the one that gets loaded most.

I should have specified that lifting the REAR inner tire on turns is no good and that would be too stiff.

The rear inner tire provides little to no traction in turns on an FWD car anyway

All that weight gets shifted to the front outer tire. The rear inner tire coming off the ground is just a consequence of either short travel coilovers or a stiff sway bar... both of which will help handling

Not to mention, even w/just decent tires, bigger brakes = less fade = more confidence + better brake performance. The performance loss in jumping from Accord to Prelude brakes is marginal, but the gain in braking feel & fade resistance is awesome and key for people who drive enthusiastically. Unless you're a drag racer there's no reason to not upgrade your brakes.

[GreenMadness]

All i saw in that video was a insanely oversized brake upgrade, naturally that will slow a car down like mentioned above, the rotating unsprung mass is a huge deal in underpowered cars.

another thing most beginner enthusists overlook is the need for brakes, or lack of... a tire is the limiting factor of acceleration and decel. If your not able to lock the tire you plan to run with your current brake set up, an increase in size "MAY" be required, although pad compound can also be a factor. if you are able to lock the tires but the pad seems to fade a higher quality pad that was designed for racing type uses will typical solve the problem.

another factor is the track to be used on, if heavy long breaking zones are common on the track and straights are far and few between the brakes will continually heat up... causing a need for a larger heat sink, ie more pad and rotor area... thus justifying the increase in size 2 ways, more mass to take heat and a possible reduction in braking distance, if you look at the top gear test track brakes are only applied in a few spots for short durrations, thus brakes would not help such a low powered car.

i saw nothing indicating suspension modifications but i will agree that a good tire/ brake pad combo goes a long way.

The rear inner tire provides little to no traction in turns on an FWD car anyway

All that weight gets shifted to the front outer tire. The rear inner tire coming off the ground is just a consequence of either short travel coilovers or a stiff sway bar... both of which will help handling

from the books i have read it is actually desirable to lift the inner rear tire, as there is more benifit to transfering the weight to outter tires, than keeping any on the inner tire.

there are various ways to lift the tire, our 91 civic hatch chump car/lemons has 400k stock suspension and a roll cage... and it reguarly lifts tire with falkin aziens,

the key is a balance in stiffness vs tire capacity, the car is leaned over quite alot as you can imagine to lift the tire with stock setup. but the spring rate times the distance compressed gives your force , so a stiffer spring will apply the same force with less travel, lower the car and decrease suspension droop and you will still be able to lift the tire, but it may actually be applying more force to the front tire, and if that tire cannot handle it then your not gaining anything.

for instance on fuzion zri's the rear of the car will only momentarily lift and then the front tire washes out from overload, this can be seen in tire temps as the fuzion heats up much more.

what im trying to get at is like said above, you must know what you are doing and trying to accomplish. throwing money and parts at a car will not help it, making smart decisions and improving the limiting and weakest factors in a system will.

[bcjammerx]

Hmmm 585.82 + shipping for OEM...when I looked at majestic it was figuring to over 800. I think I'll stick with the super cup kit...wow it really is dirt cheap when you think about it.

and reading some more of y'alls posts is making me double take that vid...maybe their knowledge is limited to brand new european sports cars and does not stretch to modification of "regular" cars

Thanks for the extra info and that link folks... it makes a little more since now

[gloryaccordy]

Well IIRC none of those guys actually built cars, they just buy expensive ones

James May *might* have some experience, but prob not enough to know how to build a car

Plus the platform was so shitty I bet making it faster w/o adding much power would be a huge challenge, well beyond the Top Gear staff's capabilities.

And most importantly like I said you're not building a car for lap times, you're building a fun daily driver and starting w/a car that responds phenomenally to suspension mods. A car that is damn near the opposite of the Renault Avantime, basically. A car that with an H22 is easily capable of hitting 150+ MPH. Def gotta upgrade the whole car, not just the engine

[bcjammerx]

Well IIRC none of those guys actually built cars, they just buy expensive ones

James May *might* have some experience, but prob not enough to know how to build a car

Plus the platform was so shitty I bet making it faster w/o adding much power would be a huge challenge, well beyond the Top Gear staff's capabilities.

And most importantly like I said you're not building a car for lap times, you're building a fun daily driver and starting w/a car that responds phenomenally to suspension mods. A car that is damn near the opposite of the Renault Avantime, basically. A car that with an H22 is easily capable of hitting 150+ MPH. Def gotta upgrade the whole car, not just the engine

all good valid points..., thanks again folks

[KB7]

I have yet to see anyone else do THAT kind of test were the only mods are suspension and then have a professional driver track run both

CB7 Feature on High-Performance Handling Handbook


i posted it titled "this thread" out of sarcasm, but it really should be titled appropriately

[mndude07]

this thread

That is a great read, and I always forget to refer people to that. It scratches the surface on some suspension theories, and their description of the car is spot-on. I had a similar setup on my car. Different shocks and springs, but same idea.

Too bad they used Tokicos...

[gloryaccordy]

That is a great read, and I always forget to refer people to that. It scratches the surface on some suspension theories, and their description of the car is spot-on. I had a similar setup on my car. Different shocks and springs, but same idea.

Too bad they used Tokicos...

Even still, they put down some impressive numbers.

But I can say first hand the response and durability of Koni Yellows are second to none.

[KB7]

That is a great read, and I always forget to refer people to that. It scratches the surface on some suspension theories, and their description of the car is spot-on. I had a similar setup on my car. Different shocks and springs, but same idea.

Too bad they used Tokicos...

yeah sometimes "this thread" acts as a 'cure all' on this and perhaps many other forums. lol

that is too bad about the tokicos, but im sure they went super budget on it, atleast one can argue that despite a budget they did not cheap out insanely

[CyborgGT]

i saw nothing indicating suspension modifications

It's in the part 2 video, they give the van a complete coilover kit. And that drops their time to I think four seconds below their stock lap time, and therefore obviously far more than the 'new brakes + tires' time. Honestly, that was the biggest surprise for me, that an aftermarket coilover kit was made for such a low-production vehicle . Lots of modification must have been needed to make those suckers work with the chassis.

So the suspension upgrade helped greatly, you're okay there. It was the poor choice of larger wheels and brakes that set it back. I'm not going to kick a dead horse explaining why.



Have I seen this episode? Jeez-louise, I've seen every modern TG several times over ... well, except season 1 episode 3 (I think); my copy doesn't have audio. I knew exactly what was posted in this thread before clicking on it; one of the very few times TG gives us somewhat serious/useful information.

[bcjammerx]

that mag article did not mention brake upgrades too did it?

I have to agree with the majority, most likely they did just slap shit on...I held those guys in too high regard...amongst other errors on my part...imagine slapping on a cam on a built engine...but not tuning it after putting on the cam...or getting the cam designed specifically for your build.

Without a tune even the most expensive best designed cam will run terrible (may e worse than stock) if it is not set up for he car/track type and then the ecu tuned for the cam. Guess that is what happened here.

Thanks for the replies though, gave me some good info to read