Track suspension

[Cobalt]

So as some may know my CB is destined for greatness, unfortunately the great suspension companies I have come to know over the years don't make any components for the CB chassis(that I know of although I am coming from a domestic market). I would like to know if I am good with my current plan of mods or if they could be improved. I am making a track car on a budget and am planing on staying in the neighborhood of ~$1800 for suspension...

So far my list of parts runs like this:

MR strutbars +tie bar ~ $115
Progress rear sway ~ $160
Megan rear lower camber arms and toe arms ~ $215
D2 coilovers wigh custom spring rates ~ $900

I know I need bushings, I was thinking a poly bushing set which I can get for about $200. I am not sure what else I need or if the products I listed are good enough for a season of autocross and hopefully a couple circuit runs...

Opinions are highly welcomed weather good or bad...

[CBkid93]

So as some may know my CB is destined for greatness, unfortunately the great suspension companies I have come to know over the years don't make any components for the CB chassis(that I know of although I am coming from a domestic market). I would like to know if I am good with my current plan of mods or if they could be improved. I am making a track car on a budget and am planing on staying in the neighborhood of ~$1800 for suspension...

So far my list of parts runs like this:

MR strutbars +tie bar ~ $115
Progress rear sway ~ $160
Megan rear lower camber arms and toe arms ~ $215
D2 coilovers wigh custom spring rates ~ $900

I know I need bushings, I was thinking a poly bushing set which I can get for about $200. I am not sure what else I need or if the products I listed are good enough for a season of autocross and hopefully a couple circuit runs...

Opinions are highly welcomed weather good or bad...

nice set up i love my d2s

[Cobalt]

Thank you my good sir. Also does anyone know of any company who makes bolt in roll cages? I have found a few weld in(basically pre bent piping...) but I am not confident in my welding abilities(I do have a welder and often weld things for friends but they arent "safety-compromising") and am building this myself.

[mndude07]

Check out autopower for bolt-in cages & roll-bars. As for the rest, it depends on how serious you are about the suspension. I would call most of the parts you listed average. I highly recommend the progress rear sway bar though.

I would look into ESP for chassis reinforcement. The Megan Racing bars aren't rigid enough. You could try to find a Neuspeed front upper bar also. The Megan Racing rear arms aren't necessary either, so with your limited budget, I would spend the money elsewhere, like on a set of brake pads for the track.

D2's are an average coilover, why custom rates? Do you have any way of knowing what rates will work for you? Another option I would look at is a Koni yellow & ground control combo. Its around the same price, but the dampers are much better than what you'll be getting in the D2's.

I would do the bushing kit for sure too.


For example:

Progress rear sway bar
Hawk HP Plus pads
Prothane poly bushing kit
ESP front upper and rear upper tie bars
Koni yellows
Ground controls

I think this would result in a better car, but may also cost slightly more. If you are very firm on your budget, then what you have looks good, but regardless I would upgrade pads instead of the Megan control arms.

[GreenMadness]

What type of track usagae are you planing on doing, HPDE/ lap days or more race oriented.

I work at a road course and run HPDE type days with my accord, i have also ran a 24 hour lemons race with a civic.

it seems like you are in about the correct mind set for a HPDE car, the toe adjusters for the rear are my next investment actually as i need to set up the rear of the car a little better and i do not like the coencintric bolt design.

I run illumina w/ 1.5'' springs (shocks aren't the worst but some koni yellows would be far better, the springs are gonna go in favor of neuspeed race
some poly in key areas (sway and radius rod bushings)
and camber adjusters ( i need to drop more to use the front camber kit as it was designed, so i can get 2 degrees negative all the way around)

But really the cage will stiffen your car enough, just get good shocks and springs cage it and get the arms to allow you to adjust your alignment easy and its a track car, once you cage it the cassis will also be able to handle R compound tires... which is about all you need to tackle a track.

i wont go into brakes, power ect... because you ask about suspension, of course good brakes are needed to really be a "track car"

[Cobalt]

Check out autopower for bolt-in cages & roll-bars. As for the rest, it depends on how serious you are about the suspension. I would call most of the parts you listed average. I highly recommend the progress rear sway bar though.

I would look into ESP for chassis reinforcement. The Megan Racing bars aren't rigid enough. You could try to find a Neuspeed front upper bar also. The Megan Racing rear arms aren't necessary either, so with your limited budget, I would spend the money elsewhere, like on a set of brake pads for the track.

D2's are an average coilover, why custom rates? Do you have any way of knowing what rates will work for you? Another option I would look at is a Koni yellow & ground control combo. Its around the same price, but the dampers are much better than what you'll be getting in the D2's.

I would do the bushing kit for sure too.


For example:

Progress rear sway bar
Hawk HP Plus pads
Prothane poly bushing kit
ESP front upper and rear upper tie bars
Koni yellows
Ground controls

I think this would result in a better car, but may also cost slightly more. If you are very firm on your budget, then what you have looks good, but regardless I would upgrade pads instead of the Megan control arms.

Like I said this is just my suspension budget,I have different budgets for brakes, engine bolt ons, clutch, ect. I am currently in the process of gutting the CB right now, I have all the big stuff out but am now still in the process of shaving of weight little by little(removing all radio wiring, evap system, electric windows, a/c, ect.) My goal is to get down to about 2300lbs. Hence why I would need custom spring rates, also yes I know how to calculate what rates I need. I may be new to Accords but I am far from new regarding performance.
Thanks for the esp suggestion, I found a upper rear tower bar I would die for... Also I believe I will pass on the megans although I see no point in getting the GC's all they are are universal Eibach springs on an adjustable perch. The yellows would be good but for a well dialed setup D2's have been proven on other cars, I dont see why they wouldnt work great on the CB chassis.

What type of track usagae are you planing on doing, HPDE/ lap days or more race oriented.

I work at a road course and run HPDE type days with my accord, i have also ran a 24 hour lemons race with a civic.

it seems like you are in about the correct mind set for a HPDE car, the toe adjusters for the rear are my next investment actually as i need to set up the rear of the car a little better and i do not like the coencintric bolt design.

I run illumina w/ 1.5'' springs (shocks aren't the worst but some koni yellows would be far better, the springs are gonna go in favor of neuspeed race
some poly in key areas (sway and radius rod bushings)
and camber adjusters ( i need to drop more to use the front camber kit as it was designed, so i can get 2 degrees negative all the way around)

But really the cage will stiffen your car enough, just get good shocks and springs cage it and get the arms to allow you to adjust your alignment easy and its a track car, once you cage it the cassis will also be able to handle R compound tires... which is about all you need to tackle a track.

i wont go into brakes, power ect... because you ask about suspension, of course good brakes are needed to really be a "track car"

HPDE's and fun runs mostly. I am thinking of going to the 3 day class at VIR with it too.

So all the CB chassis needs for track is about 2*? I was thinking more along the lines of 2.5-3*(or atleast thats how the SCCA Time Attack Cobalt was setup). Thanks for the suggestions guys!

[Karl]

Your setup should work well to get you started, very similar to what I run.
ST rear bar, omni race with 12k front 20k rear, megan rear lower arms, prothane bushings, dc front upper bar. I have some konis that need rebuilding, one day I will get them on the car.

-2.8 front camber just from lowering, -2 rear set with the arms. Tire wear is very good, although I think a little more negative camber in the front would be faster.

You should come out to one of the nasa events, its a great time and you can de and watch the races in the same weekend. www.nasa-se.com

[GreenMadness]

3 would be pretty close, thats what most scca civics run, you should set your camber based on tire temperatures, also R compounds are designed to really take advantage of the camber, were as DOT streets tend to chunk the inside of the unloaded tire while its scrubbing if too much camber is applied.

R compound wont have that trouble, once you cage the car it could easily use the camber with the race tires...

i was more stating the 2* as a personal thing, since dont have a cage yet and run DOT tires.

[Tnwagn]

Full Poly Kit
Full Suspension Refresh (Balljoints in particular)
Koni Dampers and Ground Control Sleeves
ESP 4 Point Solid Rear Strut Bar
Progress Rear Sway bar
Neuspeed 4 Point Front Strut Bar
*Cage

Like mndude07 said, the Megan bars are going to show almost no gain over factory pieces. D2's, for our platform, are nothing special. You would do better to run Koni and Ground Control Sleeves (which you can get custom rates for). If you are willing to step up your budget, you can look into fully custom suspension (Bilstein, others).

If you are really willing to step up the budget you can get full spherical bushings through Hardrace, however it isn't cheap.

If I were you, I would start with everything except the cage. If, after testing of the car, you feel like the body roll is what is hold you back (as opposed to weak tires, power, braking) you would do well to look at getting a custom cage made for you. The price you pay vs. the product you will end up with far exceedes that of a bolt in application.

[GreenMadness]

the cage is a must for a track car, i have seen too many people go all out and forget the cage, shit happens on a track... serious shit, if your car ends up on its roof its going to be at speeds well above what honda or any other car manufacture intended (although BMW gets close)

that and it really stiffens the car allowing you to take full advantage of the existing suspension. body roll is not the end all on the track if its in the suspension and not chassis flex.

edit: I have a picture of a car at the track with all kinds of things done...except a cage... the fastest he could have been going was 85mph before the spin.


to the OP, i will remove this picture, just send me a message, i dont want to clutter up a good topic with useless pictures its simply to show what can result from high performance driving.

[Cobalt]

Your setup should work well to get you started, very similar to what I run.
ST rear bar, omni race with 12k front 20k rear, megan rear lower arms, prothane bushings, dc front upper bar. I have some konis that need rebuilding, one day I will get them on the car.

-2.8 front camber just from lowering, -2 rear set with the arms. Tire wear is very good, although I think a little more negative camber in the front would be faster.

You should come out to one of the nasa events, its a great time and you can de and watch the races in the same weekend. www.nasa-se.com

Thanks for the suggestions, why so hard in the back and soft in the front??? I was thinking I would do a 12K/16K(f/r).

D2's, for our platform, are nothing special. You would do better to run Koni and Ground Control Sleeves (which you can get custom rates for). If you are willing to step up your budget, you can look into fully custom suspension (Bilstein, others).

If I were you, I would start with everything except the cage. If, after testing of the car, you feel like the body roll is what is hold you back (as opposed to weak tires, power, braking) you would do well to look at getting a custom cage made for you. The price you pay vs. the product you will end up with far exceedes that of a bolt in application.

If I had the ability to raise my budget I would but Airlines don't pay well. My dream setup would be Ohlin's and Pedders but I don't have $5k and I don't know if they are even made for the CB.

Like I said below, in my case the cage is for safety as much as for chassis stiffness. With the esp and neuspeed 4pts chassis stiffness shouldnt need much more beefing. As for the rest of my setup I am going with Hankook RS3's, generic header, Tsudo catback, test pipe, F1 stage 2 clutch, Fidanza 8.5 lb flywheel, Motegi Tracklites, generic CAI, and a few other things I am forgetting...

the cage is a must for a track car, i have seen too many people go all out and forget the cage, shit happens on a track... serious shit, if your car ends up on its roof its going to be at speeds well above what honda or any other car manufacture intended (although BMW gets close)

that and it really stiffens the car allowing you to take full advantage of the existing suspension. body roll is not the end all on the track if its in the suspension and not chassis flex.

to the OP, i will remove this picture, just send me a message, i dont want to clutter up a good topic with useless pictures its simply to show what can result from high performance driving.

Honestly the cage is more intended for safety, I know it will stiffen everything up but I dont plan on dying soon but I do plan on racing so this is a measure I need to take into perspective.

Leave the pic, it flows with the thread and may make people think twice about agressive driving without the proper safety equipment.

[Karl]

Thanks for the suggestions, why so hard in the back and soft in the front??? I was thinking I would do a 12K/16K(f/r).

this is a track only car and the stiff rear springs really help with rotation and minimizing body roll.

we are asking a lot of the front tires with most of the braking and cornering forces and all of the accelerating being done by them, using the rear to control roll helps make the front tires job a little easier.

[oneoffaccord]

the alignment is the most important thing to handling then is your tires. i run negative 2.8 in my civic and my accord. neagtive 1.8 front in the civic and 2.0 in the accord. i say alittle less negative is good in the front to keep those tires planted.

[mndude07]

Go drive and check tire temps instead of guessing. That will tell you how to set your camber. Toe is a moreso preference, and in our case we should maximize the caster angle, which is 4 degrees I believe (within the OEM specs).

Also, that 20k rear seems like it would be incredibly unpredictable in anything other than maybe auto cross, and unless the car is in steady-state, would be very twitchy. What does your ride frequency come out to be with those rates? Seems like your rear would be nearly a full Hz higher, which is definitely not good.

Anyone know how the motion ratio on the civic compares to the accord?

The tire is always your main source of grip of course, with suspension secondary, and roll bars, etc being tertiary. Every tire is different and has a different camber curve to stay "happy" so test, test, test!

[Karl]

never heard of ride frequency before, and after a quick search I am around 3.5 front and 5 rear. Im not sure if I believe in this theory of suspension tuning.

There is a link to in car video in my sig, you can see how it handles.