No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

[owequitit]

My experience very much tells me this information is incorrect.

1) camber does create wear. The physics of rolling the tire on the inside edge should be obvious.

2) If you lower the car, and reset the toe to zero, the wear persists.

3) If you maintain the ride height, but reduce the camber, then the wear disappears.

4) Camber wear and toe wear are distinctly different, and appear differently on the tires. If you know how to identify which is which, then you can make a determination what is causing it.

[JDMCB3Si]

some of you really need to think before you post.

If this information posted from H-T is incorrect, then why is it so that the guys running low offset and negative camber ONLY worry about their TOE setting?? Because they teo will cause a lot of uneven were, NOT all but most of it.

[owequitit]

some of you really need to think before you post.

If this information posted from H-T is incorrect, then why is it so that the guys running low offset and negative camber ONLY worry about their TOE setting?? Because they teo will cause a lot of uneven were, NOT all but most of it.

So because we don't agree, we didn't think?

How many of those low offset guys drive their cars all over the world?

Toe very clearly creates cupping or feathering on the tread, as a result of the tire rolling at an angle other than straight ahead, while camber simply wears the inside out faster.

The OP didn't post information that said toe didn't cause wear. He posted information that camber doesn't cause enough wear to need a camber kit, and that is not true.

Yes, toe will wear a tire a lot faster, and in a shorter time. However, camber also wears tires quicker than normal, but not as fast as toe.

I would also think that the low offset guys aren't worried about camber, because without the camber, they couldn't run as low an offset.

[Tnwagn]

So because we don't agree, we didn't think?

How many of those low offset guys drive their cars all over the world?

Toe very clearly creates cupping or feathering on the tread, as a result of the tire rolling at an angle other than straight ahead, while camber simply wears the inside out faster.

The OP didn't post information that said toe didn't cause wear. He posted information that camber doesn't cause enough wear to need a camber kit, and that is not true.

Yes, toe will wear a tire a lot faster, and in a shorter time. However, camber also wears tires quicker than normal, but not as fast as toe.

I would also think that the low offset guys aren't worried about camber, because without the camber, they couldn't run as low an offset.

A voice of reason in the midst of chaos!

[deevergote]

Ebay kits do a great job and are very inexpensive. Under $50.



This is speculation. I've yet to hear about anyones camber kits seizing up. Rusting? Yes, just about everything rusts down there and perhaps it will take it's toll in 5-10 years.


This is the only real valid point and the biggest concern with camber kits. But companies have made adjustments to their kits to help fix the issue.


Um..I'm guessing the guy's never heard of lock tight, nor does he know how to align a car.


Never heard of anyones ball joint fucking up either.


Loctite, it's great.

I know the OP didn't write this, but I'm just clearing some shit up. The guy that did write it is an idiot.
I was also gonna say what bcjammerx said. Camber DOES wear tires unevenly. Especially if you have a softer compound rubber.

All good points, Jose. Though I'd argue the cheap ebay camber kits... they work, but they've been known to break. I had a kit break on me, and I know of at least 3 others who have had the same thing happen. The extra $100-$200 for quality parts is much safer... and far cheaper than the aftermath of a broken camber kit on the highway!


I don't understand this "toe is what kills your tires, so don't worry about camber" shit. YES, bad toe will destroy your tires VERY quickly. It is the leading cause of tire wear. However, just because bad toe does cause wear doesn't mean that negative camber doesn't! That's like saying "well, heroin is addictive... so I should be safe using cocaine!"

BOTH toe and camber cause tire wear.

Yes, negative camber can help handling to some extent. Many race cars run some degree of negative camber. However, there is a trade-off. Many race cars burn through several sets of tires in a single race as well! The low offset guys... they clearly have other priorities.



And the cost argument is bullshit. If you can't afford to lower your car properly, which includes correcting the alignment, then you can't afford to lower your car. Period.







Get a camber kit. Stop believing every uneducated dipshit that thinks he knows everything, and use your own brain. Just by looking at the geometry of our suspensions, you can see that you DO need a camber kit. Riding on the edges of your tires is unsafe, and it will wear them out.

[accord2nr81]

i have spc balljoint camber kits front and back... 3.25 drop in front and 2.5 drop in back... no complaints

[kapone]

So because we don't agree, we didn't think?

How many of those low offset guys drive their cars all over the world?

Toe very clearly creates cupping or feathering on the tread, as a result of the tire rolling at an angle other than straight ahead, while camber simply wears the inside out faster.

The OP didn't post information that said toe didn't cause wear. He posted information that camber doesn't cause enough wear to need a camber kit, and that is not true.

Yes, toe will wear a tire a lot faster, and in a shorter time. However, camber also wears tires quicker than normal, but not as fast as toe.

I would also think that the low offset guys aren't worried about camber, because without the camber, they couldn't run as low an offset.

I really don't mean to be a dick but how many of you guys arguing this have actually aligned cars (mostly lowered Honda's) for a living?

Seriously the amount of camber we get from lowering our vehicles does not cause excessive camber wear ...ITS YOUR TOE ...

Again this is not from just my car experience this is from the almost 1000 cars I have aligned... And I learned this from the shop owner who has been doing this for over 10+ years with countless return customers... So again if your just using your personal experience "YOU ARE WRONG" and it was just that personal experience not the norm.

I understand its difficult to look at your tires leaning in and "LOGICALLY" think this. I did at first...

BTW both BMW's and Benz run over 2.5 degrees of negative camber from the factory with no irregular tire wear with no rotation of tires (tires are directional and staggered from factory on most models ) again Camber unless your at a drastic 4+ degrees your not seeing the wear ...

[wed3k]

All good points, Jose. Though I'd argue the cheap ebay camber kits... they work, but they've been known to break. I had a kit break on me, and I know of at least 3 others who have had the same thing happen. The extra $100-$200 for quality parts is much safer... and far cheaper than the aftermath of a broken camber kit on the highway!


I don't understand this "toe is what kills your tires, so don't worry about camber" shit. YES, bad toe will destroy your tires VERY quickly. It is the leading cause of tire wear. However, just because bad toe does cause wear doesn't mean that negative camber doesn't! That's like saying "well, heroin is addictive... so I should be safe using cocaine!"

BOTH toe and camber cause tire wear.

Yes, negative camber can help handling to some extent. Many race cars run some degree of negative camber. However, there is a trade-off. Many race cars burn through several sets of tires in a single race as well! The low offset guys... they clearly have other priorities.



And the cost argument is bullshit. If you can't afford to lower your car properly, which includes correcting the alignment, then you can't afford to lower your car. Period.







Get a camber kit. Stop believing every uneducated dipshit that thinks he knows everything, and use your own brain. Just by looking at the geometry of our suspensions, you can see that you DO need a camber kit. Riding on the edges of your tires is unsafe, and it will wear them out.

it's not even a 100 bucks, i bought a sprint/eibach style and it didnt hit and only cost me 85 dollars.

[owequitit]

I really don't mean to be a dick but how many of you guys arguing this have actually aligned cars (mostly lowered Honda's) for a living?

Seriously the amount of camber we get from lowering our vehicles does not cause excessive camber wear ...ITS YOUR TOE ...

Again this is not from just my car experience this is from the almost 1000 cars I have aligned... And I learned this from the shop owner who has been doing this for over 10+ years with countless return customers... So again if your just using your personal experience "YOU ARE WRONG" and it was just that personal experience not the norm.

I understand its difficult to look at your tires leaning in and "LOGICALLY" think this. I did at first...

BTW both BMW's and Benz run over 2.5 degrees of negative camber from the factory with no irregular tire wear with no rotation of tires (tires are directional and staggered from factory on most models ) again Camber unless your at a drastic 4+ degrees your not seeing the wear ...

Oh no. You align cars for a living, you must know everything. I am sure you know the exact driving habits of all those cars too eh?

Toe wear and camber wear are distinctly different. Of course, I have never had a job aligning cars, so I must also have never driven, modified or worked on them right?

I actually have a mild drop on my car and I had nearly 3.5* of negative camber induced up front. I have seen Hondas with up to 2.0-2.5 degrees of camber experience little wear over time, but much beyond that you start getting varying degrees of camber wear on the tires, even if you align the car and put the toe back to where it should be. At 3.2* of negative camber, I WAS getting uneven tire wear, even though the toe had been corrected and tire wear indicated that the toe was in fact OK. We are talking over thousands of miles instead of hundreds, as would have been the case with toe, but once the camber kit was installed, the problem went away completely.

You seem to be trying to pretend that I haven't addressed the toe issue, and that is just not true. Toe does cause wear, but so does camber, and you can tell which is causing what by the tire wear. Also, if it were solely toe and not camber, then resetting the toe after aligning the car would eliminate the wear and it does not. It reduces it, but does not eliminate it.

[wed3k]

3.5 degrees of camber? what did you fuck up? im dropped 2.25 and im not even pushing 3 degrees.

btw mazda 3's run 2.5 in the rear. i think thats pretty crazy.

[owequitit]

I really don't mean to be a dick but how many of you guys arguing this have actually aligned cars (mostly lowered Honda's) for a living?

Seriously the amount of camber we get from lowering our vehicles does not cause excessive camber wear ...ITS YOUR TOE ...

Again this is not from just my car experience this is from the almost 1000 cars I have aligned... And I learned this from the shop owner who has been doing this for over 10+ years with countless return customers... So again if your just using your personal experience "YOU ARE WRONG" and it was just that personal experience not the norm.

I understand its difficult to look at your tires leaning in and "LOGICALLY" think this. I did at first...

BTW both BMW's and Benz run over 2.5 degrees of negative camber from the factory with no irregular tire wear with no rotation of tires (tires are directional and staggered from factory on most models ) again Camber unless your at a drastic 4+ degrees your not seeing the wear ...

Also, just FYI, the principal of operation on the supsensions is different. Just because the Benzes and Bimmers see those specs with no issues doesn't mean it works on Honda. One of the things with Bimmers specifically that you forgot to consider is that as they travel, a strut suspension does NOT induce additional much camber with travel, and thus they must have a larger amount of camber dialed in at static ride height, in order to provide a decent handling trade off. Unequal length control arms, by design, induce addtional camber with travel, thus optimizing the contact patch for cornering. However, since when you lower a car with wishbones, geometrically, the suspension is now positioned for what would have been a load in a corner at non static height, your camber has changed significantly. Whereas at a lowered ride height that same Bimmer would not have gained as much camber with travel.

[owequitit]

3.5 degrees of camber? what did you fuck up? im dropped 2.25 and im not even pushing 3 degrees.

btw mazda 3's run 2.5 in the rear. i think thats pretty crazy.

I would have to go back and look at the sheet, but that is the number that sticks out in my mind. I could be mistaken though. I do know that I dialed it back to .5* of negative camber, and that was too much, so probably something in the 1.0-1.5* range would be the best compromise without affecting wear too much.

[bcjammerx]

I have aligned cars for a living

and as it's been sated already...yes toe is the most wearing...camber will do it still though. any way...we already est. all that...which you would have seen if you read all the posts...sorry...since I have done this for a living...had to post.

Even though owequitit already did pretty well

[mj213]

It's funny how people are stating personal experience with the vehicles they've actually driven, had proper alignment performed, still experience increased inner tire wear, and yet members maintain that it's untrue.

[wed3k]

It's funny how people are stating personal experience with the vehicles they've actually driven, had proper alignment performed, still experience increased inner tire wear, and yet members maintain that it's untrue.

define "proper"

a lot of people dont know how to do a "modified" alignment. a lot of alignment techs just sets the toe and lets it go and collects the money to go fuck a ho.