front sway bar yes or no?

[johnl]

Does that even do anything ?

Yes, but nothing worthwhile...

[johnl]

the front sway bar makes it "harder" for the front to steer (even though all it does is control body roll).

An ARB does (at least) two things:

1) Lessens body roll, which lessens roll induced camber changes at the wheels (the car weight will be carried more evenly across the full width of the contact patches and less on the edges of the contact patches because body roll and thus camber change is less).

This can increase grip due to the contact patches effectively being larger (i.e. more evenly loaded across the entire surface of the contact patch) than if more roll induced camber change were present, e.g. if you fit a stiffer front ARB you may increase front grip because the effectively larger front contact patches can generate more grip.

2) Changes the distribution of dynamic lateral weight transfer when cornering. Note that this does not mean that the total amount of front + rear weight transfer will change as a direct result of changing roll stiffness (though may change as an indirect result), only the %s of the total weight transfer that occurs at the front or rear will change.

E.g. If you fit say a stiffer front ARB then you will increase the % of lateral total weight transfer that occurs at the front of the car, while simultaneaously reducing the % of total weight transfer that occurs at the rear of the car (despite having done nothing to the rear end of the car).

The weight being carried at the front end (when cornering) is now being carried on effectively less rubber because more weight is carried on the OF tyre and less on the IF tyre. Conversely the rear weight is carried on effectively more rubber as the rear contact patches are more equally loaded when cornering. These affects mean that the front of the car tends to lose front grip and the rear end gain grip, and thus understeer increases.

So, we have 'swings and roundabouts' when fitting a stiffer front ARB, i.e. two effects with opposite affects. In any particular case you will both gain and lose front grip from '1' and from '2', the total net gain or loss in front grip depending on whether you pick up more grip from '1' than you lose from '2'.

If your car rolls a great deal then you may to pick up a fair bit of front grip from fitting a stiffer front ARB due to the roll and associated camber change reduction, possibly more than you lose from the increase in lateral weight transfer (but it might be argued that you would have been better off reducing roll by fitting a larger rear ARB than front ARB). On the other hand if the car already has relatively little body roll then fitting a larger front ARB will probably generate less front grip from dynamic camber change reduction than it loses from lateral weight transfer...

Of course these principles apply in reverse when considering the affect of fitting a stiffer rear ARB.

[arthaccord]

my car with stock bars handled good in auto cross but i would get a eibach front and progress rear

[kit-to-lip]

An ARB does (at least) two things:

1) Lessens body roll, which lessens roll induced camber changes at the wheels (the car weight will be carried more evenly across the full width of the contact patches and less on the edges of the contact patches because body roll and thus camber change is less).

This can increase grip due to the contact patches effectively being larger (i.e. more evenly loaded across the entire surface of the contact patch) than if more roll induced camber change were present, e.g. if you fit a stiffer front ARB you may increase front grip because the effectively larger front contact patches can generate more grip.

2) Changes the distribution of dynamic lateral weight transfer when cornering. Note that this does not mean that the total amount of front + rear weight transfer will change as a direct result of changing roll stiffness (though may change as an indirect result), only the %s of the total weight transfer that occurs at the front or rear will change.

E.g. If you fit say a stiffer front ARB then you will increase the % of lateral total weight transfer that occurs at the front of the car, while simultaneaously reducing the % of total weight transfer that occurs at the rear of the car (despite having done nothing to the rear end of the car).

The weight being carried at the front end (when cornering) is now being carried on effectively less rubber because more weight is carried on the OF tyre and less on the IF tyre. Conversely the rear weight is carried on effectively more rubber as the rear contact patches are more equally loaded when cornering. These affects mean that the front of the car tends to lose front grip and the rear end gain grip, and thus understeer increases.

So, we have 'swings and roundabouts' when fitting a stiffer front ARB, i.e. two effects with opposite affects. In any particular case you will both gain and lose front grip from '1' and from '2', the total net gain or loss in front grip depending on whether you pick up more grip from '1' than you lose from '2'.

If your car rolls a great deal then you may to pick up a fair bit of front grip from fitting a stiffer front ARB due to the roll and associated camber change reduction, possibly more than you lose from the increase in lateral weight transfer (but it might be argued that you would have been better off reducing roll by fitting a larger rear ARB than front ARB). On the other hand if the car already has relatively little body roll then fitting a larger front ARB will probably generate less front grip from dynamic camber change reduction than it loses from lateral weight transfer...

Of course these principles apply in reverse when considering the affect of fitting a stiffer rear ARB.

WOW! thanks for all the info, it makes more sense now...................I think.

[1990Ex]

An ARB does (at least) two things:

1) Lessens body roll, which lessens roll induced camber changes at the wheels (the car weight will be carried more evenly across the full width of the contact patches and less on the edges of the contact patches because body roll and thus camber change is less).

This can increase grip due to the contact patches effectively being larger (i.e. more evenly loaded across the entire surface of the contact patch) than if more roll induced camber change were present, e.g. if you fit a stiffer front ARB you may increase front grip because the effectively larger front contact patches can generate more grip.

2) Changes the distribution of dynamic lateral weight transfer when cornering. Note that this does not mean that the total amount of front + rear weight transfer will change as a direct result of changing roll stiffness (though may change as an indirect result), only the %s of the total weight transfer that occurs at the front or rear will change.

E.g. If you fit say a stiffer front ARB then you will increase the % of lateral total weight transfer that occurs at the front of the car, while simultaneaously reducing the % of total weight transfer that occurs at the rear of the car (despite having done nothing to the rear end of the car).

The weight being carried at the front end (when cornering) is now being carried on effectively less rubber because more weight is carried on the OF tyre and less on the IF tyre. Conversely the rear weight is carried on effectively more rubber as the rear contact patches are more equally loaded when cornering. These affects mean that the front of the car tends to lose front grip and the rear end gain grip, and thus understeer increases.

So, we have 'swings and roundabouts' when fitting a stiffer front ARB, i.e. two effects with opposite affects. In any particular case you will both gain and lose front grip from '1' and from '2', the total net gain or loss in front grip depending on whether you pick up more grip from '1' than you lose from '2'.

If your car rolls a great deal then you may to pick up a fair bit of front grip from fitting a stiffer front ARB due to the roll and associated camber change reduction, possibly more than you lose from the increase in lateral weight transfer (but it might be argued that you would have been better off reducing roll by fitting a larger rear ARB than front ARB). On the other hand if the car already has relatively little body roll then fitting a larger front ARB will probably generate less front grip from dynamic camber change reduction than it loses from lateral weight transfer...

Of course these principles apply in reverse when considering the affect of fitting a stiffer rear ARB.

that explained everything i needed to know thx dude

[Otto]

kit-to-lip, about the roll cage while on the street: I knew there was a reason that was a bad idea, but I couldn't recall why. Seems rather obvious now that you said it.

For my setup (omnipower full coilovers), the rear is pretty damn stiff, so it was suggested by someone here that I'd likely want bigger up front, and possibly leaving the back out all together (LX). Makes sense.

[popeyeamac]

yeah thats right the ex has the rsb, i dont have an ex. which means right now i dont have any rsb. so i can only assume it will make a big difference!

i have an ex but if i have a rear sway bar which i really havnt paid an attention, then i must need some strut tower bars too becuase handling isnt bad but it doesnt feel like performance lol

[johnl]

I'm currently experimenting with running my CB7 with the front ARB disconnected. I've had it disconnected for a couple of days now, but haven't really had the chance to try it out properly due to wet roads, however, so far it's a bit surprising...

Some car specs; Koni yellows on full stiff front and rear, stock springs and ride height, front and rear tower braces, stock rear ARB with some detail work done to stiffen the chassis and suspension mounting points / brackets (which are too soft / flexible in stock form and contribute to poorer than necesary rear roll stiffness), and rear ARB poly bushes.

So far I quite like it without the front ARB. I had fully expected the chassis to become very 'rolly' without the front ARB, but to my surprise it's very little more so than with the front ARB connected (at least on a less than grippy surface). Turn-in seems more or less unaffected, but the car is much more neutral in corners, understeer is significantly reduced.

The front suspension is noticably less harsh on very rough surfaces but more prone to bottoming out on bumps / potholes where only a single front wheel is affected. Time and drier weather will tell more...

Has anyone else tried deleting the front ARB?

[azian21485]

I'm currently experimenting with running my CB7 with the front ARB disconnected. I've had it disconnected for a couple of days now, but haven't really had the chance to try it out properly due to wet roads, however, so far it's a bit surprising...

Some car specs; Koni yellows on full stiff front and rear, stock springs and ride height, front and rear tower braces, stock rear ARB with some detail work done to stiffen the chassis and suspension mounting points / brackets (which are too soft / flexible in stock form and contribute to poorer than necesary rear roll stiffness), and rear ARB poly bushes.

So far I quite like it without the front ARB. I had fully expected the chassis to become very 'rolly' without the front ARB, but to my surprise it's very little more so than with the front ARB connected (at least on a less than grippy surface). Turn-in seems more or less unaffected, but the car is much more neutral in corners, understeer is significantly reduced.

The front suspension is noticably less harsh on very rough surfaces but more prone to bottoming out on bumps / potholes where only a single front wheel is affected. Time and drier weather will tell more...

Has anyone else tried deleting the front ARB?

I've run no front swaybar with 550lb/in front springs and it was way too sloppy at autocross. It might be ok at tracks with long sweepers but you'll almost definately bottom out unless you're running higher rates than ots springs. IMO, if you're not running 700+ front spring rates you should use a front swaybar. The motion ratio on our accords suck in front.

The best setup I've run was 550f, lx (22mm hollow) front bar; 700 rear, progress bar. Different drivers like different setups so whatever feels right and lowers your track time =)