Can you get high compression rods?

[KillerCam282]

Hmmn. Changing Rods to bump Compression ratio...its a thought. Just not well thought out.

Not to TKO this, but H22 rods AFAIK do not work with the 95mm Cranks because they run into the valves. You need the 89/90.1 Cranks to use the H22 rods.

Givens:
-H22 rods are longer.
-Longer rods equal shorter TDC and BDC distance which causes quicker piston speed at the expense of torque.
-Longer rods also mean the piston may reach closer to the head.

To be deduced:
- Piston travel that is closer to head will increase CR. CR is the ratio of the mixture to used volume in the Combustion Camber. Less space = Higher concentration which means higher CR.

Now the TKO: You need a really thick HG. Which is not practical. TypeG says mill head (most economical option). Pistons (not economical to say the least). You really played with the piston to deck number there, which is factored in CR. A+ for effort.

[gloryaccordy]

Hmmn. Changing Rods to bump Compression ratio...its a thought. Just not well thought out.

Not to TKO this, but H22 rods AFAIK do not work with the 95mm Cranks because they run into the valves. You need the 89/90.1 Cranks to use the H22 rods.

Givens:
-H22 rods are longer.
-Longer rods equal shorter TDC and BDC distance which causes quicker piston speed at the expense of torque.
-Longer rods also mean the piston may reach closer to the head.

To be deduced:
- Piston travel that is closer to head will increase CR. CR is the ratio of the mixture to used volume in the Combustion Camber. Less space = Higher concentration which means higher CR.

Now the TKO: You need a really thick HG. Which is not practical. TypeG says mill head (most economical option). Pistons (not economical to say the least). You really played with the piston to deck number there, which is factored in CR. A+ for effort.

F for me not knowing the clearances...oh well. I totally forgot about the differences in stroke. Plus w/higher lift cams the clearance problems would have been exacerbated. Getting the cylinders honed for new pistons is supposedly really cheap anyway...

[KillerCam282]

F for me not knowing the clearances...oh well. I totally forgot about the differences in stroke. Plus w/higher lift cams the clearance problems would have been exacerbated. Getting the cylinders honed for new pistons is supposedly really cheap anyway...

Its good to see some brain power being used in a thread. This is the first thread I responded to in the PT section in a while. Usually, they are just "Spoon-feed me information!" threads.

[gloryaccordy]

I have a dream...of seeing 200whp w/o a turbo or VTEC...and a little of the know-how to get there. Just trying to find some safe ways to cut corners...11:1 compression w/just new rods and milling the head= teh win.

*RANT*There's so much potential in an all motor F. Peeps don't realize it. The A6 makes 63HP/L...that's in the league of motors like the old VQ30 from Nissan, and BMW's 4.4L V8...mind you, those are engines w/10:1 compression, DOHC, and non-shitty duration cams. Add in the fact that a DX is dumb light and you have potential for surprising speed from a N/A F22 Accord.*RANT OVER*

And yea, weaksauce threads are a byproduct of more members... ...

[Jarrett]

I definitely think 200whp in a NA F22 is achievable, but it won't be in a streetable car. Compression would need to be too high to run efficiently on pump gas. Overbored high compression pistons are going to be the basis of such a buildup paired with as aggressive of a cam as you can get without running in to clearance problems with the pistons. I'd like to see it done, but I'm not going to try it myself. I want an H22 too bad to throw money at something else.

[KillerCam282]

A 200whp F22 can be done, and still be streetable. Easily. Its just that no one is willing to put the time and effort into doing it. And I already went turbo so I annot prove it anytime soon. Like Glory says, there is plenty of potential. Blockwise. The F22 SOHC cylinder head was built with economy in mind. Its almost half as tall as the VTEC performance heads. However, I am very sure it can be done on pump gas. Its all in the tune. I have seen different Honda engines (VTEC and non-VTEC) get 210whp with less displacement, 13:1 CR and run on 93 octance gasoline.

EDIT: However, it all would depend on how much money you are willing to spend. A displacement increase would help tremendously. As well as a few other well thought out induction modifications. Then of course you would need to solicite some of the best available engine management available...and I can tell you, its not AEM EMS or Haltech.

[Jarrett]

I guess this is where we have to draw the line on what is streetable and what isn't. There's a guy in my town that occasionally drives his '74 Nova that's tubbed out and runs 9s with a 3-speed Powerglide. All NA. I wouldn't call that streetable, but he still drives it a lot. And I chose my words carefully in my previous post. I said you couldn't run it on pump gas efficiently. With the type of cam that such a setup will require, reasonable fuel economy is no longer in the realm of what's to be expected. But you're right, it's all in the tuning and I guess if you've got the money to spend lots of time tuning....power to you.

[gloryaccordy]

I don't get why peeps are so scared of the SOHC. DOHC/DOHC VTEC doesn't matter. Did you know the high lift cams on the H22 are not far in spec from the Delta 272 cam? The only thing you gain from DOHC is the ability to choose your overlap...but if you're working with a company like Delta I'm sure they know their shizzle.

Anywhoo, 200whp from an F is not at all unreasonable IMO. Yes, the cams would be pretty ridiculous...maybe a 280ish degree cam...but you'd have to have rocks for brains to not up the compression on such a wild cam. Plus you could limit overlap a little bit to minimize low-RPM blowby...you'd lose a little high end, but you can't rev an F too high anyway...and that compression would offset the low-end loss, and help fuel economy in all modes of operation.

Couple a wild cam+11.5ish compression with ITBs, a custom header, some mild porting and a good tune, and the 237-240 crank HP is not far off. Looking at the parts, it prob. wouldn't be more than $1000-1500 TOPS...and if you can think this far you could prob. do a lot of the work yourself...the main issue separating this from an H22 is the route you take to the higher compression, and how you get your shizzle tuned. Losing the MAP sensor from the ITBs= starting from scratch with a tune, unless you make the ITBs with a plenum...but even w/o the ITBs I think 210-220chp isn't unreasonable, with insane torque to match...

[Jarrett]

Maybe that power figure isn't too far out there but that price sure is. $1500 wouldn't even get you the ITBs and custom header. If that was the case, it would have been done by now. I'm not trying to knock your thinking, because unlike most on the site, you're actually doing it, but NA power costs more for a reason. There's more parts involved, more custom stuff, and tuning for for those high levels. But go for it.

[gloryaccordy]

Maybe that power figure isn't too far out there but that price sure is. $1500 wouldn't even get you the ITBs and custom header. If that was the case, it would have been done by now. I'm not trying to knock your thinking, because unlike most on the site, you're actually doing it, but NA power costs more for a reason. There's more parts involved, more custom stuff, and tuning for for those high levels. But go for it.

$1500 was optimistic, but I'm convinced the parts would be less than an H22+tranny...

11:1 piston kit- $399 from Raceeng.com
Delta custom cam- $150 or so
CBR ITB's (theyre separatable...cut the stock IM and hose em together)- $150 on Ebay
Bisimoto header- pretty sure it's like $500-700 or so...
Grand total- $1200-1400+ shipping, cylinder boring+ tuning...not much more, if more at all, than an I/H/E H22 longblock, but with a power band matched to the F tranny... I'm starting a much better job in June so I might start a build then if I keep the car...

[KillerCam282]

I don't get why peeps are so scared of the SOHC. DOHC/DOHC VTEC doesn't matter...

The F22 SOHC cylinder head was built with economy in mind. Its almost half as tall as the VTEC performance heads.

Nothing to be scared of, it is what it is.

[uslspct]

If HondaFan doesn't make 200+whp I'd be surprised.
13:1 CR on 93! Who was running that?
I agree with Glory's picks except the ITB's and prices. Better to just get a reworked IM than ITB's as far as money and time is concerned IMO. And If the Bisi header isn't available then what? A custom one for more money. But for a budget build, F22 blocks are the cheapest, use delta cams, up the compression with some pistons bored to 86mm. And maybe find someone's ported head(F22 or other) they don't want anymore, for a deal. And then you've got a good setup without spending too much or buying a H22 outright.
All this talk about mixing parts is great, but I think I've decided for my N/A build to go with a f23block and crank and just replace rods and pistons with lighter ones, and higher compression. It's got a 97mm stroke. Probably spend the money on some sleeves to go maybe a 89mm bore. I don't know how much it will be able to rev though. PirateMcFred's build with a f23 was the most motivating read for me. I think I've decided to concentrate on getting the most torque and the best torque curve on the dyno. He's got 183wtq and 200whp and 2point6 has 200wtq and 260whp. Yet 2point6 has a custom crank, 2mm bigger bore, ITB's, a killer header and head. If you added that to Pirate's build you would be very close to 2Point6's numbers. But that's without buying any H22 parts or a custom crank. The killer is sleeving to get that extra displacement, also I plan on using nitrous. That's a lot of mullah.

[gloryaccordy]

Sounds very good uslspct...that's a 2.4L engine (2413.8cc to be exact). I like that people are going all out on builds, but I wanna show how Honda hooked us up...there's a treasure waiting in the mishmash of engines cast from the same block. The main things that have to be improved are the compression, the cams, and the peripherals...lol basically everything...but it's not too bad. How much does it cost to get stock cylinders honed for new pistons, on average?

I might be getting a 6th gen next...I'm thinking milled H23 head with some Crower cams. I'd love to do the milled H22 head thing but I'd have to get a custom grind that would make more torque lower in the rev band (higher lift, slightly lower duration...the H22 high lift cam is like 287 degrees) as the bottom end in the F23 is a time bomb above the redline. All in all though either way has a lot of options to go with, and since the cars are kinda light the engines will move them.

[uslspct]

I think it's about $100 for honing all 4 cylinders.
I'm still researching about bottom ends and all the specs on all the engines, like you. There's so much info to read and questions to ponder.
But for the cheap N/A what about the F20B pistons? What's preventing them from being dropped into a stock F block for a bump in compression? Besides finding them for a good price.

[gloryaccordy]

It's tough to get the motor...let alone the guts from one. If I could somehow get the bottom end of an H22 for cheap that's what I would go with in the F, as backwards as that is. But that would allow me to go to 8k or so and really go apeshit with the cam...plus I still think it would be cheaper than an H, and it would go nicely with the H22 LSD tranny. It would be a lot more gratifying to figure out a way to rev higher on the stock 95mm stroke though...