Help with Piston and bottom end choices.

[dwhacks]

Well I've done a lot of searching and it seems like a lot of options are no longer there, so a lot of info in threads is irrelevant. Either way, my f22a1 has 350k KM on it, and its been abused by the two owners before me. She burns a little oil to say the least. This fall/winter I plan on rebuilding the bottom end and I want to do it as budget/diy as possible.

I went drag racing last weekend and it was a BLAST! I was the underdog against tons of big muscle but still had a lot of fun on the 1/8th mile with regular times around 10.424. I want to go faster, and I want to stay N/A.

Currently I have a 68mm Throttle body, Port matched double-stacked IAB intake manifold from an H23 with working IAB's going into a lightly cleaned up head with a Delta 272 regrind cam. Cheap 4-2-1 header, no cat, and a 2 1/4 exhaust.

Currently I'm learning to tune on crome on the street (no dyno near) but I will probably switch to neptune for better support and built in logging. The car seems to be ever changing and is hard to get a solid tune. Its old and tired and things are wearing out, but they are getting changed and fixed as I go.

I would like 200whp, and I would like to do most of the work myself. I was looking at some high compression pistons but at 600$ USD that works out to be DANG expensive up in Canada with our bad exchange rate.

So what about some of these DSM piston options, I only could find info for turbo setups where everyone was lowering the compression with different rod combos. Is there something that would work with shot peened stock F22 rods and gain me some compression? Or do I have to shell out the big bucks for forged.

And then I'm going to need valve springs. It seems like Bisimoto is out of their f22 springs (and getting out of all honda stuff) so where else can I find some "performance" springs without breaking the bank.

I know there Is no free horsepower, but I don't think My goal is too far fetched.

Any Ideas would be much appreciated!

[ol blue]

To be honest I think you would be better off getting an f23a and getting some k20a3 pistons. Also could so with k20a2 pistons and k20a3 rods. From all the reading I have done that was correct. If you look at jdm-Accorns profile he reached 200whp with stock bottom end.

[Rilas]

A better option might be the F23AX but over bored with the K24 pistons. This bumps up compression to around 10.5-10.7 depending on if the head has been resurfaced at all. But the compression and the bore increase alone is worth some hp, all the while being cheaper than forged pistons.

Some reading in jdm_accorn's thread is a must if you want to build NA horsepower. I would recommend starting from the beginning and reading it all. A lot of lessons were learned through the process.

[dwhacks]

I have read parts of his MR thread before, I will dig back in.

Seems the f23aX is more torque, and I could almost throw my top end on it for 200whp. My rev limit will be even lower though which is less fun. I guess I will have to see what I can find in local junk yards.

But still, what about my f22a? Is it just not worth it on a budget?

[Jarrett]

"Budget" is a pretty vague term. One thing you should consider is that either rebuilding your F22A block or going with an F23A bottom end will bot require a few hundred dollars in gaskets, seals, bearings and any unforeseen issues that arise during removal and installation such as mounts and wiring. Budget for that first.

Then, we can look at the different prices of the bottom end options and their characteristics and/or limitations. Consider, also, that rebuilding your current block means downtime. So, you will either have to accept the downtime or purchase a spare F22A bottom end if you elect that option.

F22A
Engine cost - $200 (bought from Craigslist or a scrapyard)
Rods - $225 (Generic rods with ARP bolts on eBay. Many reviews online have said measurements are well within specs)
Rod/Main Bearings - $180 (OEM Honda)
Forged Pistons - $550
Machining Costs - $120 (With no overbore. Just resurfacing, cleaning and a light hone)
Overbore - $60
Headbolts - $40 (Don't reuse OEM, especially for a performance application with higher cylinder pressures)
Timing Belt Kit - $150 (OEM Honda kits can be found preassembled on eBay)
OEM Headgasket - $50
Mics. Gaskets - $100 (valve cover, spark plug tube seals, camshaft, crankshaft front and rear main, balance shaft...)

This assumes that there are no issues with the crankshaft that require additional work and that your oil pump is within spec, too. Those two could add significant cost to this.

The F23A comparison is nearly the same, but can be tweaked to include OEM K20A2/K20Z3 pistons for a little cheaper. I bought my K20Z3 pistons for $125 a little over a year ago. This would also negate the need for an overbore, unless you elected K24A2 pistons as suggested earlier. A previous downside to this option was the lack of aftermarket rods. The generic companies that make the low-price F22A rods have started making F23A rods as well. So it evens the comparison by that much more.

[dwhacks]

Thanks for that. And I have considered the gaskets and bearings. My insurance runs out mid november and I plan on leaving it off until I finish the engine, so down time isn't a problem. I can always ride my bicycle (i live in a small town) or take my girlfriends jeep.

I had read that the stock F22AX rods were capable up to 250whp when shot peened, so I didn't think I would need new rods.

I don't mind the idea of overboring/paying for machinist costs. From all that I've found, the f22ax block is good to 86mm on N/A.

If all options are only within ~300$ then it seems like I should stick with the f22a that I have and go forged. But if there was a significantly cheaper option (150$ pistons instead of 550$) then that would be a decent savings. Pistons like these maybe.

Basically I hoping for around $1000 or less in parts.

[Jarrett]

An issue with the rods is going to be that the factory F22A rods use a press-fit pin design where any of the pistons that would be considered as upgrades all use a floating pin. So, $225 in rods and $125 in pistons isn't a bad deal for over 11.0:1 compression ratio. It would really wake that camshaft up. That combination would get you under $1000 in parts.

[dwhacks]

Which rods are you talking about? 11:1 compression ratio would be what I am after for sure.

I thought I saw a right up with all sorts or rod length and piston combos but I can't find it again. I think it was for someone that wanted to go boosted again and they were trying to get 9:1 comp ratio.

[Jarrett]

This is an example of one of the rods I'm referring to. 5 or 6 years ago these rods started to show up on eBay. There were a lot of people on H-T that purchased them and found that they measured very close to factory measurement specs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-2-1-2-...61a577&vxp=mtr

The reason I didn't want to include a link for these is that the link will be bad after a month and, likewise, useless to anyone who will use this thread as a resource.

Their benefits are:

Price-forged rods for half or even a third of the cost of usual big name companies.
Forged-stronger composition for increased cylinder pressures.
ARP bolts-with the ability to upgrade to their serious hardware for not much more.

The drawbacks:
WEIGHT-I don't remember what the generic forged F22A rod weighs, but I know the forged F23A rod weighs 535g compared to the OEM 469g. The difference for the F22A isn't that drastic as they're not correcting such a flimsy design like the manufacturers had to do with the F23A. But I think it's still around the factory F22A rod weight of 586g. Not much worse, but not much better, either. Good for boost, but not for revving.

[dwhacks]

Jeeze, thanks for that info.

So if I were to go with k20a1 pistons and new rods in my engine I will need it bored out and valve reliefs cut in the pistons. Anything else funky going on I need to know about? any reason why I shouldn't do this? do these pistons have an offset pin or something like that? I've been reading so much about his lately I'm a little mixed up!

[Chrisnick]

Stop theorizing, get practical.

First and foremost, please post your timeslip. Running 10.424 with those mods in the 1/8th mile.... that thing is sick, broken, and/or not making crap for power. My '97 with a US F23A1 with bolt ons is running 9.68-9.69 1/8ths, untuned. In the 1/4, that equates to a 15 flat at 90mph. Theres TONS of room for improvement in gearing, power, and traction that I can do to easily chop almost another second off my time without even taking the valvecover off. Your VASTLY over thinking what you need to do to go faster. Throwing parts at it is not your issue though...

Second, just get it healthy; whether that's with a "fresh" rebuild or an F23 bottom end, it needs to be done. Get the engine healthy, because it's quite apparent it's not happy.

Third, and probably the most important(which is why I primarily want to see your timeslip), KEEP GOING TO THE TRACK! Your setup definitely has some fine tuning to be done, and I would play with YOUR DRIVING more than anything else. Launch and shifting are going be your biggest benefactors. Don't worry about what the tree is doing, don't worry about getting a good reaction time, worry about getting the launch down and having as fast of shifts as possible. The less time you spend between the gears, the less time is added to your slip, and the more(relative) time you spend in gear accelerating. Practice, practice, practice!

Fourth, I wouldn't trust cheap rotating assembly parts. They break, and they're what keep your engine making power. If it breaks, you're buying another engine. A generic turbo is passable, and other generic "bolt on" performance parts can be made to work if necessary. OEM or spend the money on quality stuff. No compromise with the rotating assemble and the engines critical/supporting components, no matter how appealing the price point is. Once you learn this, it's much less frustrating and usually cheaper in the long run to do it once and do it right.

Even if you have to type it out, get your times up. Those of us who've been down the track a "few" times can tell what's going on just by looking at it.

[dwhacks]

well i know I need to go to the track more. But even more then that I need to rebuild my engine. Its really old and tired, so if I'm going to get the work done, why not modify it a bit.

So as much as I want to work on my drag times, this is about bang for buck rebuilding my engine.

[ol blue]

Why would a generic turbo be alright? If anything happens it will take the motor with it. Just like a rotating system. If your concerned bring them in and get them checked out and see what the engine builder thinks about them.

[dwhacks]

Well jdm92_accorn says the k20a2 pistons dome creates hot spots meaning a need for retarded ignition and figures less compression and more advanced ignition will make for more usable power.

He suggested k24a2 pistons, but I thought all those are 87mm which would be too much over bore for the f22a.

Does anyone know of any information where anyone has done either of these things?

Now I'm really not sure what to do!

[Jarrett]

The safest that anyone has bored over an F22A is to 86mm. The F23A that comes 86mm from the factory has regularly been taken to 87mm by people on other forums. That would have to be the basis for this type of modification.