F22A NA build

[wagon-r]

I am an automatic, and I don't intend to push past redline.

i do want to occasionally push the motor for some fun passing. would a stock f22 piston and rod from a rebuild kit suffice for me then, in terms of durability? i will be operating the motor well below limits for almost 90 percent of the time unless i'm ultra-passing someone up.thanks!

I realize you are looking for input from other members on the forum, but I will throw in my two bits here anyway.

Honda makes good parts and 20 years ago their tolerances were far better than most manufacturers. Thus, if the cylinders, rings, and bearings are in good shape, you can run at the F22 redline of 6200 rpm all day if you want. In fact, the H23 uses the same rods as the F22 with bigger pistons and its redline is 6500.

The only reason to go to forged pistons is if you are going the turbo route or if you want to run significantly higher rpm. If you never want to run above 6500 rpm (and you would have to reprogram the transmission controller to do this with an automatic anyway) and you don't boost, the stock internals are fine. Plus the piston to cylinder wall clearance for the OEM pistons is a little more forgiving than for forged pistons, because the forged pistons expand more as they heat up.

My problem is that I love high rpm and I'd like to occasionally blast to 7500 rpm. Forged pistons and H-rods are essential to handle this kind of abuse. They would also provide much higher compression ratio (11.0:1, compared to maybe 9.3:1 with milling the head), which would be another 5-10 hp boost. But, as I can't find anyone who stocks 85mm forged pistons for the F22 and I can't wait 2 months to have them made and the block rebored, I'm just going to have to have my tuner put in fuel cut at 7100 rpm and forgo the higher compression ratio.

[P5ylance]

I realize you are looking for input from other members on the forum, but I will throw in my two bits here anyway.

Honda makes good parts and 20 years ago their tolerances were far better than most manufacturers. Thus, if the cylinders, rings, and bearings are in good shape, you can run at the F22 redline of 6200 rpm all day if you want. In fact, the H23 uses the same rods as the F22 with bigger pistons and its redline is 6500.

The only reason to go to forged pistons is if you are going the turbo route or if you want to run significantly higher rpm. If you never want to run above 6500 rpm (and you would have to reprogram the transmission controller to do this with an automatic anyway) and you don't boost, the stock internals are fine. Plus the piston to cylinder wall clearance for the OEM pistons is a little more forgiving than for forged pistons, because the forged pistons expand more as they heat up.

My problem is that I love high rpm and I'd like to occasionally blast to 7500 rpm. Forged pistons and H-rods are essential to handle this kind of abuse. They would also provide much higher compression ratio (11.0:1, compared to maybe 9.3:1 with milling the head), which would be another 5-10 hp boost. But, as I can't find anyone who stocks 85mm forged pistons for the F22 and I can't wait 2 months to have them made and the block rebored, I'm just going to have to have my tuner put in fuel cut at 7100 rpm and forgo the higher compression ratio.

This right here is all great information, and all information that I am able to consider for my build, thanks wagon-r! For my purposes then I will forego getting upgraded pistons and rods and stick with factory specs. I was considering it because everyone told me that if I was doing this build I might as well bump compression, but the methods of doing so doesn't suit me or aren't necessary for my requirements for this motor build. Best to avoid opening a can of worms if i don't need to! I didn't know that about forged pistons and how they expand under heat as well, so thank you for that piece of knowledge.

[JDMConcepts]

I have a little free time tonight, so I thought I'd finally start my F22A build thread. I've done research and gathered parts for about a year (I don't have a lot of free time). I finally took the head off a couple weeks ago and took it to Pure Tuning in Toledo, OH. So, I'm finally going.

I'll just list my plans in this post, to keep things organized. Build will include:
- F22A head, rebuilt by Pure Tuning, plus some basic exhaust porting and 0.030" head mill
- Webcams.com camshaft: 0.400" lift (I/E), 202/199 deg duration (I/E) @ 0.050" lift, 114 deg lobe separation
- Bisimoto valve springs
- Bisimoto adjustable cam gear
- H23 intake manifold, including IAB
- H22 throttle body
- Prelude Si air filter box and connecting tube
- Bisimoto F22A header (I sure hope it doesn't leak)
- 2.5" OBD2 Magnaflow catalyst, 2.5" exhaust & resonator, Integra Type R muffler (2.25") - I don't want a lot of noise.
- H22A fuel injectors, cleaned and balanced by Mr. Gasket
- P72 ECU, chipped with Hondata S100 - will be tuned by Pure Tuning
- Windage tray (std. on my F22B1 block)

- Quaife LSD
- Koni Yellow Sport struts
- Progress rear sway bar

While I'm at it, I am replacing timing belt, water pump, rings, rod bearings, all water hoses, and most gaskets.

I know I'm not going to wind up with as much power as I would with an H22 swap. I decided against that for two reasons. First, I did an H22 swap about 10 years ago. Despite a "guarantee" that the engine had less than 35k miles on it, it only lasted about 20k before the compression went. If I'm going to go to all this trouble, I want an engine that will last for a while. The second reason is that its kind of cool to see what I can get out of the F22A.

Wagon r that is a very nice build you are planning. I must admit really wish you went with some pistons just to take the full advantage of your cylinder head and components. Another option on pistons would be using a set of arias for some of the engines they make piston sets that are only .05" bigger allowing you to get the proper piston to wall clearances through a simple hone process, not sure if they make them for the f22 block off the shelf but its worth looking into. Another option would be to build a block on the side so when your ready it is waiting to be swapped in. Keep in mind that once you mill the head there is no going back. You will be moving your piston to valve clearance closer while running a higher lift, while your rpm range is low enough to where that shouldn't create contact its still something you may want to look at, another issue is that if you are doing some port work that may move your usable rpm higher which in turn may require more rpm and if that is the case then you will want to clay the motor to insure adequate piston to valve. The last concern is that by milling the head you will be weakening the integrity of the deck of the head which you are investing your time and money into. If you did want to bump up the compression there are other options like a two layer gaskets.

[wagon-r]

I must admit really wish you went with some pistons just to take the full advantage of your cylinder head and components.

Agreed. I just ran out of time and money.

Keep in mind that once you mill the head there is no going back. You will be moving your piston to valve clearance closer while running a higher lift, while your rpm range is low enough to where that shouldn't create contact its still something you may want to look at

I clayed the motor before I sent the head to Pure Tuning. They will make the decision on how much can safety be milled. I also am having them install stiffer valve springs, so I shouldn't have to worry about float at higher rpms.

The last concern is that by milling the head you will be weakening the integrity of the deck of the head which you are investing your time and money into. If you did want to bump up the compression there are other options like a two layer gaskets.

I'd love to install a two layer gasket. Do you know where to find one? I haven't been able to find a source for the F22A.

I'm actually having problems because the Honda OEM head gasket that hondapartsonline.com sent me is a 5-layer gasket that is considerably thicker than the one I took off the F22B block. I'd appreciate any advice on where to get even a 3-layer gasket.

[GhostAccord]

Take your 5 layer gasket, drill out the brass rivets, remove the 3 flat layers and just use the two outer layers.. that's how you make a 2 layer head gasket out of a 5 layer.

If you want a 3 layer HG you can ether remove 2 of the flat layers from your 5 layer or you can buy an f22B1/2 OEM 3 layer gasket and drill out the coolant ports to match the head. If you want to do a hybrid build you have to be willing to sacrifice and fabricate parts to make it work!

[wagon-r]

I'm perfectly happy to fabricate parts, but I don't want to fabricate something that would make things worse. My problem here was a lack of knowledge, as I didn't know that the inner layers could be deleted without affecting how well the gasket sealed.

So, I greatly appreciate your advice, GhostAccord. This is exactly what I needed.

The middle gasket seems to be controlling the size of a lot of the ports. If I delete it, many of the ports would be significantly larger. Thus, I am reluctant to remove the middle gasket to create a 2-layer gasket.

But creating a 3-layer gasket should solve my problem. Thanks again.

[wagon-r]

I have been making progress on the build, I just haven't had time to post any information. But I'm in DC on business this week, so I thought I would do some updates.

I got the cylinder head back from Pure Tuning. I got their Spec A Cylinder head refresh package, including competition valve job, plus a conservative 0.025" mill and a budget exhaust port job. Here is the head:




Exhaust ports with budget porting:




And stock intake ports. You can see the intake ports are a lot bigger than the exhaust ports, which is why the intake flows so well on the F22a (and why I had a little port work done on the exhaust to try to even it out).

[wagon-r]

I got the pistons cleaned up. Soaked each of them in Barryman's Chem-Dip for 4 hours, used an old ring to remove all of the carbon from the grooves, and used an electrical wire to clean the carbon out of the passages. Took about a half hour each, but finally got them all clean.




Pure Tuning wanted $150 to clean the rocker arms, so I did this myself. Soaked each of the parts in Chem-Dip, then rinsed them, wiped them down with a clean cloth, and let them dry. I then carefully reassembled all the parts in the exact same order they came off, using motor oil and engine assembly lube for the contact points. Here is a picture after I cleaned and disassembled the rocker arms:




To make sure I got a good matching surface on the block, I bought a Grade A Precision Black Granite Surface Plate from shars.com. Wrapped it with 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper, sprayed it with WD40, and used a figure-8 motion to get a nice, flat, clean surface. Biggest problem was keeping the sandpaper from tearing - if I had know, I would have bought some sanding cloth, but no one stocks them with fine grit and I didn't have time to order online. Here is picture of the granite surface plate:




You can see the finished block surface in the picture I posted of the cylinder honing marks in my next post. The biggest problem was taping off the cylinders and water passages to keep them clean during the process, although the WD40 seemed to capture most of it. I also put plastic wrap over the crankshaft journals to ensure nothing got on them.

[wagon-r]

I installed new rod bearings and new piston rings - using OEM parts from Honda.

Before installing the rings, I measured the piston ring gaps at three different points in the cylinder. Ring gaps were all just within the new engine specs and well within the service specs, including taper.

The original bearings were all within the service spec, but I want to push this engine to 7000 rpm, so I figured it would be a good idea to replace the rod bearings (thanks to previous advice on this from an earlier post).

The pistons, rings, and bearings were installed last weekend, after carefully cleaning the cylinder walls and connecting rod journals, then using engine assembly lube on the bearings and motor oil on the rings and cylinder walls.

I didn't hone the cylinders, for 5 reasons. First, the Honda service manual says this isn't required unless the cylinders are scored. Second, I saw an article on cylinder honing where an OEM supplier said that some manufacturers were using precise equipment to hone their new engines to RA 2 or lower, in order to reduce emissions. Even a fine grit hone will generate a surface roughness of RA 10 or more. Third, my tuner at Pure Tuning said it isn't necessary to deglaze the cylinders on Honda engines. Forth, I bought OEM rings. Fifth, most of the cylinder surface still has the original 60 degree honed surface - see picture:


I carefully cleaned the cylinder head and block surfaces with brake cleaner and dried them with a clean cloth, then installed the cylinder head using the 3-step torque sequence described in the service manual.

Finally, windage tray, oil pickup, and oil pan were reinstalled, using new gaskets for the oil pickup and oil pan and using liquid gasket on the oil pan gasket as described in the service manual.

[wagon-r]

This post is a bit of a digression. I actually have a 1997 Accord wagon. I am installing the F22A head partially for the better flow, but mostly for access to a good intake manifold and header. I figured I'd need to replace water hoses and I would need an OBD2 to OBD1 adapter to tune the engine. But I wouldn't have done this if I knew what else was involved.

Before I started the project, I talked to Julio at bisimoto.com. He assured me that the F22A head would bolt onto my F22B1 block. While he was technically right, he neglected to tell me that all kinds of other F22B1 parts do not bolt to the F22A head. So far, I have had to replace or semi-fabricate the following:
- Thermostat housing with 1993
- water crossover pipe (below the intake manifold) with 1993
- Replace thermostat housing with 1993
- Replace power steering bracket and pump with 1993.
- Fabricated power steering hose, with '97 hose end at the steering rack, '93 end at the power steering pump, and new line in between.
- Needed '93 power steering belt.
- Alternator and alternator bracket replaced with 1993 ('97 wouldn't bolt up with '93 power steering bracket installed), although the existing alternator belt fit.
- Timing belt covers. The camshaft is located in a different position, so I need the upper covers for a 1993 to fit the camshaft and the lower cover from the 1997 engine to fit the engine mount. I didn't want to change the engine mount, as I don't know if the 1993 mount will bolt to a 1997 body. But the upper and lower covers don't quite line up, so this combination leaves a small gap between the upper and lower covers that I filled by fabricating the gaskets and filling the remaining gaps with shoe goop.
- Needed '93 timing belt.
- I had to remove 2 of the 5 layers from the 1993 head gasket to match the 3-layer thickness of the 1997 gasket
- Fabricated fuel lines ('93 lines are on the passenger side, '97 lines on the drivers side).
- Oil dipstick and tube.

[toycar]

I know its a little late in the game to make this suggestion, but why not buy some OEM rods/pistons to raise compression?


People talk all the time about using k20 pistons and different rods and all sorts of various OEM applications to get 11:1 compression with stock parts.



Just sayin.


Surprised nobody suggested this. PM Jarrett, Im sure he could rattle off 5-6 different ways to accomplish this using stock parts.

[wagon-r]

I know its a little late in the game to make this suggestion, but why not buy some OEM rods/pistons to raise compression?

This was previously suggested and I looked into it. Unfortunately, no one stocks forged F22A pistons for the stock cylinder bore anymore and I would have to wait 6 weeks for them to be made, then take the pistons and the block to a machine shop to have the bores matched to the pistons. I just didn't have the time to wait for this.

[toycar]

This was previously suggested and I looked into it. Unfortunately, no one stocks forged F22A pistons for the stock cylinder bore anymore and I would have to wait 6 weeks for them to be made, then take the pistons and the block to a machine shop to have the bores matched to the pistons. I just didn't have the time to wait for this.

Nah, Im saying use h22 rods with k20 pistons or something to that affect(dont quote me on that being a functional combo) to achieve a higher compression using stock parts.


Its very doable. Read up/search on it. Or just PM Jarrett. Like I said, Im sure he could rattle off 5-6 different rod/piston combos using stock parts to get you close to 11:1 compression-ON OEM PARTS.

[wagon-r]

I have made some progress. Cylinder head is installed with Bisimoto variable valve gear (see pictures), timing belt installed and tensioned using procedure in Honda manual. I left off the balance shaft belt. Valve cover was cleaned and all new gaskets installed. I also bought a 8mm-1.25 rethreading tap from Snap-On to clean up the threads in the cylinder head for the intake and exhaust manifold studs.







I had to custom fabricate an upper best cover. I started with the F22A upper belt cover, then cut it and fabricated gaskets so that it works with the 1997 engine mount and lower cover (see picture):





I have been slowed down because I have been traveling the last two week and by additional parts from my 1997 that don't fit with the F22A head. The P/S bracket for the F22A conflicts with the 1997 alternator bracket, so I ordered alternator and bracket from the junkyard. I'm hoping the alternator bracket will bolt to the F22B1 block (haven't tried yet).

[wagon-r]

I have been extremely busy the last few months and couldn't get to the build for a while. Finally got back to it a few weeks ago and have installed:
- '93 power steering pump and bracket, '93 alternator and bracket, and power steering and alternator belts.
- Valve cover (with new gaskets) and spark plugs.
- H23 intake manifold, with fuel rail and reconditioned H22A fuel injectors.
- Thermostat housing, with new thermostat and gasket.
- Power steering hose, which I had fabricated (steering rack end from '97, power steering pump end from '93, new hose in between). See photo.




Just found out that the fuel line mount to the fuel rail is on the opposite side of the engine, so I'll have to fabricate some fuel lines. But outside of this, I think all that is left is figuring out all of the vacuum lines, coolant lines, and electrical connectors. Some of the connectors are in different places on the H23, so I'm sure this will take me some time to figure out. But the end is at least in sight, even if its still a long way off.