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Engine block dropped off at the machine shop

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    Engine block dropped off at the machine shop

    I have a couple of engine builds I'm in the process of in addition to the constant consideration of continuing to play with the F22A. One of them is an F20B that I will be stroking to 97mm with an F23A cankshaft. Many people go this route and retain the F23A rods and incorporate either custom pistons or bore for K20A2 pistons. However, I'm a fan of using long rods.

    I have an extra set of F20B rods that I want to use in this build. Those who are dimension-savvy will know that doing so will mean a 4mm increase in wrist pin height using the 145mm F20B rod over the 141mm F23A rod. This will necessitate custom piston with a much lower compression height. Judging by some of the off-the-shelf items available for Hondas and other makes, I'm okay with this. I wanted to ensure that I'd have enough room for the oil ring to not interfere with the wrist pin and that each ring land would still have sufficient thickness. I could have made this process easier on myself by rebushing the rod for a 19-20mm wrist pin but I chose not to. That's not set in stone at this point, though. Neither is the oil ring height. I'll go down a little lower if Wiseco is okay with it. The resultant compression height should be 26.5mm with a .020" protrusion from the deck height.

    You may also be keen on the fact that an F20B rod shouldn't fit on the F23A rod journal because the journal is too small. The diameter is the same 45mm but the width is too narrow for the rod. The journal is .780" while the rod is .935". Your options here are to grind the big end of the rod to match the journal width, grind the counterweights of the crankshaft journal to match the width of the rod or go for broke and buy custom rods. I'm going with the second option because I finally found a machine shop willing to do it. They're going to grind it out a reheat treat the surface and I'll be able to retain the B16/B17-spec rod bearings.

    They will also be boring the block to 86mm(maybe 85.5mm) for a little bump in displacement and to freshen up the cylinder walls. The block will be using the main girdle from the F23A because it is much beefier and bolts into the block in 10 more locations than the F20B girdle. It will need a little bit of clearance modification but I'll take pictures of all that. This will require me to have the block line honed also just to sure things up.

    There are a couple of other things they're having to do also and I think it's all coming in at a pretty decent price. Of course there will be much more stuff to do once it's further along but I'm really excited to get it started. If you have any questions or want to insult me for going this route, let it fly.
    Last edited by Jarrett; 07-13-2013, 02:23 AM.
    My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

    #2
    Sounds like an expensive, involved, fulfilling build. So youll have gobs of torque along with decent revs Im assuming? Good luck, cant wait for pics

    Comment


      #3
      Be a pretty decent OE stroker. The thing that concerns me is the balance issues if not done right due to the rod choice, but i assume you looked into their work an are confidant in them.

      02 Crv
      02 silverado Ex cab Z71, 2011 TRD 17" wheels, 245/80/17, ls1 cam, AFE intake, 3" catback, tuned by Larry at LSXperformance&pcm tuning driven daily.
      92 Acura Legend colbalt blue LS Coupe, custom intake, custom vibrant 2.5 cat back, led cluster and high beams, 2016 Coyote GT 18x8 wheels 235/40/18.
      Coming Soon Tein TSX coilovers.

      Comment


        #4
        Jarrett, I understand using the long stroke (for torque) I assume. Using the f20 head, I am trying to understand the advantage. Seems like I may have read somewhere about the shape of the cumbustion chamber or? Please help me understand. One day later down the road, I may try something along these lines.( meaning it may not be intended for daily driven usage of course).


        http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=178069

        Comment


          #5
          Alan, I'm using the head for a few reasons.

          1) I have it.

          2) The cylinders will be bored to 86mm (although I'm considering just ordering 85.5mm pistons and sticking to that instead) so I don't want to use one of my H22A heads because their combustion chamber diameters exceed that.

          3) I'm saving my PDE head for another, more serious build later on.

          LJ, I have 7 F20B rods and they will be choosing the 4 closest ones in weight and matching them further if need be. The custom pistons will be weighed once they arrive but they haven't even been ordered yet. Naturally, the crankshaft will be balanced once the work is finished on it. and I'll have a completely balanced assembly. I haven't decided on which damper I'm using yet, though. I switched to an RC17S Hadsys compressor found in the '94-'97 EX Accords instead of the RC17D the car came with. This means I have an extra row on my compressor pulley. I also currently have a Prelude VTEC 90 amp alternator that has an extra rib on the pulley. This means I should either use my H22A crankshaft pulley which is slightly heavier than the one found on the F22A, or the one on the F23A. It has the same extra row for the compressor and alternator but Honda put it on a diet. I guess we'll see. I'm not even close to that point yet, though.

          Erik, "decent revs" is about as far I'd venture to say is capable with this. While I've increased the rod length significantly the stroke has as well. My rod/stroke ratio will be 1.49:1 which is the exact same as the F22A. I'll have slightly higher rev potential with a lighter rotating assembly and a head capable of reaching up there, but not much more. I imagine it will be similar to an H23A VTEC that makes peak power just under 7000 rpm. You're right on the money with your descriptive terms, too. Hopefully the experiment is worth it. When I move on to my other engine later this could be a good candidate for a wagon build or tossing into a del Sol.

          Thanks to everyone for the interest. Progress will only be as quick as the machine shop is so bear with me, please.
          My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

          Comment


            #6
            Following this build.

            You are the car nerd in the same way I am the electronics nerd, going overboard to experiment beyond need and so your plans interest me. If you are up my way you should stop by and check out my new ride.
            My 91 Accord F22B DOHC MR


            My 1996 Civic Ex H23A VTEC MR

            Comment


              #7
              Be sure to have the crank balanced with the clutch/flywheel/damper/gears on it.
              www.850fab.com
              IG - @850Fab
              FB - @850Fabrication

              Comment


                #8
                Thanks, Blake. I wasn't sure about the clutch being included but I guess I can certainly look into that. Everything else will be taken up to the machine shop when they get to the point that they're ready. I just don't want to keep all my stuff up there in their way in the meantime.

                I talked to Rosko like you told me to in regards to the pistons I'll be needing and I guess he didn't fully comprehend what I'm wanting. I'm sure, like you, he's busy with racing season and not overly concerned with helping people design pistons for their engines. My search continues.

                Thanks, Jeremiah. I like your new car a lot. I'm not much of a Civic person but I can respect a nice car when I see one. Get those little quirks fixed and you've got a street demon on your hands.

                I've actually been meaning to post again in this thread for the past couple of days now. There are no real updates as the machine shop is busy doing some heavy machinery work so my stuff is waiting patiently. It's really difficult to wait when you're so antsy.
                Last edited by Jarrett; 03-31-2013, 03:20 AM.
                My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                Comment


                  #9
                  make sure they balance the crank first and then put the rest on. some crank places are lazy and will take material off the flywheel, so if you ever have to change the flywheel, youre sol. (not really for a 4 cylinder but it is about principle)
                  I <3 G60.

                  0.5mm Oversized Stainless valves and bronze guides available. Pm me please.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Well, we hit a bit of a snag yesterday. I got a call from the machine shop on Wednesday saying that there was going to be a problem fitting the wide rods to the narrow journal because of the bearing interference with the journal radius. This kind of took me by surprise because I thought the radius was going to have to be recreated entirely with the journal getting wider. Well, I went up there and it seems they were thinking that I just wanted the counterweight taken out to accept the rod and that the bearing already would be narrow enough to work as-is. Obviously this wasn't the case. I think there was a break down in communication. Now they're wanting to narrow the F20B rods up to the .780" width that the F23A uses. What does this mean for me? That I'll have roughly the same end product I wanted with a little less rod strength. But the K24A uses the same width rod bearing with a longer stroke so it will be okay. Narrowing the F20B rods it is.

                    The block was welded up already and the repair will hold up with absolutely no issues. Given the new rod circumstances I'll be able to stick with F23A bearings exclusively instead of mixing in B16A bearings for the rods that would have been necessary for the standard F20B rod width.

                    I'll post some pictures when I go pick things up soon. That may be later next week now that they've found some time to work on it.
                    My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm really impressed with the amount of effort and research you have done! This takes time, dedication and motivation

                      Out of curiosity what goal is it you have in mind for this build, like what specific thing are you trying to accomplish

                      Comment


                        #12
                        In for the nitty gritty updates....

                        Jarrett,

                        Props for pushing the envelope.
                        Originally posted by wed3k
                        im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by toycar View Post
                          In for the nitty gritty updates....

                          Jarrett,

                          Props for pushing the envelope.
                          Pushing the envelope?? Lol

                          He mailed that envelope from how far he pushed it lol

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Goal is probably a well balanced performing car, in short.

                            02 Crv
                            02 silverado Ex cab Z71, 2011 TRD 17" wheels, 245/80/17, ls1 cam, AFE intake, 3" catback, tuned by Larry at LSXperformance&pcm tuning driven daily.
                            92 Acura Legend colbalt blue LS Coupe, custom intake, custom vibrant 2.5 cat back, led cluster and high beams, 2016 Coyote GT 18x8 wheels 235/40/18.
                            Coming Soon Tein TSX coilovers.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Well, I'm picking the engine up tomorrow. I'll post pictures of it when I get it home tomorrow night, hopefully. Things took a pretty big step back again, though. Let's rehash a bit. At first I was planning to run 145mm rods with custom-height pistons. That was shelved when the machine shop told me they misunderstood what I wanted and said they couldn't modify the crank like I wanted. Then it was decided to narrow the rods. They were okay with it but kept delaying because they wanted to ask around the see how they'd go about moving the bearing notch inward so that the narrow bearing would still sit in the newly-narrowed rod. The more they delayed the more I lost confidence in them as a machine shop. I guess their expertise in just in heavy machinery and big diesels. In the future I need to find a machine shop with more experience doing the wild stuff.

                              Anyway, I got a brand new set of PRB pistons ('02-'06 K20A2/'06-'11 K20Z3) and had them bore to match them. They finished last week and will hone to the clearances I gave them (.020") tomorrow morning. I'll order bearings this week and get everything below the head built within the month. I'm not in a hurry because I still don't have a car ready to put it in. My Accord will be down for another year easily.

                              Stay tuned for pictures tomorrow.
                              My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                              Comment

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