Horsepower vs Torque F22 vs H22

[PR CB7]

This debate doesnt seem to get anywhere, you cannot use a oil driven vtc on a belt driven motor, I mean you can but lets be real for one second, you can buy better things with the cost of it

Now, apparently its also hard to have lift in both valves on a sohc, thats like only excersising one leg

Direct injection is impossible on a f22 head

6bolt 4g "BLOCKS" are stonger but not superior

And yes you can make a old motor do almost the same as new ones, but the reason all these engines are coming out with these technologys is efficiency
A motor nowadays has to pass smog laws, somthing an old motor producing the same hp as new ones would have a.hard time doing it

think about it, if something old was really that good, wouldnt you think it would still be used?

Lotus is a great company, do you really think they just "gave up on it"
Do you really think one cam can step up to todays task?

Answer whether you like it or not is NO

[gloryaccordy]

I see your point but at the same time that's crossing a huge gap, DOHC Technology onto a SOHC Motor, I mean, I don't expect that to be possible either. However, they DO offer the same rocker arm technology (not off the shelf, I forget the company or companies that can fabricate and provide the assembly tho, I'll get it from my grandfather) for the F22 that's found in the more up to date motors (The K, and the J Series, the J Series might actually be a more form fitting template because it's a SOHC motor), so I don't know how far fetched an idea it is to throw I-VTEC or at least a Psuedo-I-VTEC system onto the F22 considering they do sell Rocker Arm and custom cam profiles for these motors.


I used to think like this to, that newer simply was better because Older didn't have it but once I stepped into the realm of custom-to-spec parts purchasing it blew the doors off the joint.

Just as an example, and this is something I'm going through now, having a K20 Head put onto my H22 bottom end, one of the questions I was askinig was if I would be able to utilize the I-Vtec system seeing as how I'm using the K20 Head and was told that the conversion to a Chain Driven System and addition of the VTC was more then a possiblity.

So I dunno I wouldn't count any old platform out nowadays. Money seems to be the great saving grace, if you can afford it..it can be done.

Your build reinforces my point. If you built an H with an H head and an H with a K head to the same specs, the K would make more power, which is why you are going with the K head. In other words, you can't make up the difference through mods. Anything you can do to an H you can do to a K, and you will make more power. There are built K24A1s (basically the K's H23A1- econo VTEC, cam phasing on intake) making 200, 250, 300 WHP on pump gas no sweat. A fully built + bored + stroked H can't do that.

[toycar]

Outperforms how?

In all aspects the 6 bolt was by and far the best 4g63 design. From port design, thrust bearings, oil system, coolant jackets, piston design, valve angle- everything is better on the 6 bolt design. The only thing they did better for the revised 7 bolt engine was in the exhaust manifold and rods.

Nothing else about the overhauled design was better though. It yielded more power due to a higher compression ratio and smaller ports. Smaller ports allowed for more pressure faster, creating a more desireable torque curve.

6bolt owns every other 4g63 drivetrain, and that's not just my opinion.


The fastest dsm, which was the fastest turbo 4 cylinder for a long time, ran a 6bolt. Also, no other 2.0 turbo engine has EVER outperformed it on a stock chassis.


The ecoterd that Chevy offers is probably the most underrated 4 banger around, and its knocking on the door at top dog all the time. Look at how unpopular cavaliers are in the tuner world.

[owequitit]

LOL technology can be brought to any build. As i said build for build, money for money. This is why the SBF and SBC continue to live on, but also continue to get better power and efficiency it's simple times have changed, but their is still 7 second carbureted cars. I love a small engine but size does matter in the power race even with technology.

You are still twisting my words.

Compare a 350 cubic inch SBC to a 350 CID, DOHC, high flow V8 equivalent and you will see what I am talking about.

[SOHC-FTW]

You are still twisting my words.

Compare a 350 cubic inch SBC to a 350 CID, DOHC, high flow V8 equivalent and you will see what I am talking about.

I agreed with your technology part, just like the old 302s vs the new. At the same time we've still got older engines going faster due to aftermarket technology.

[Domesticated]

I agreed with your technology part, just like the old 302s vs the new. At the same time we've still got older engines going faster due to aftermarket availability and lack of manufacturer restrictions.

Fixed. Do you think the engineers like conforming to the rules of the mass public. CAI and perfect performance exhaust aren't standard because people don't want their cars loud. You think engineers working for OEM can't out perform small aftermarket shops? The tech engineers come up with, but aren't allowed to use is good stuff.

[gloryaccordy]

I agreed with your technology part, just like the old 302s vs the new. At the same time we've still got older engines going faster due to aftermarket technology.

I get your point now. A SBC making 1HP/ci was a big deal a long time ago but now with advances in head design, fuel delivery, etc. etc. a 350HP 350ci is like ground zero. But you will never get an SBC to make 100HP/L for example, with the streetability of something like a K20A. But at the end of the day, specific efficiency is kind of meaningless... I would rather have a 400HP SBC that is tiny, cheap to mod and simple to work on than something high tech but heavy, expensive, and finicky. You can put an SBC motor in pretty much anything... getting the wiring for something modern alone makes it not worth it. But I think I get what you're saying.

Fixed. Do you think the engineers like conforming to the rules of the mass public. CAI and perfect performance exhaust aren't standard because people don't want their cars loud. You think engineers working for OEM can't out perform small aftermarket shops? The tech engineers come up with, but aren't allowed to use is good stuff.

Exactly. A lot of great cars (GTI) and aftermarket companies (AMG) were borne out of OEM engineers looking to work outside the rules and bureaucracy of regulations. There is always something left on the table for performance.

[owequitit]

I agreed with your technology part, just like the old 302s vs the new. At the same time we've still got older engines going faster due to aftermarket technology.

But you can apply those same technologies to newer engines and get better results from it... Hence, tech still wins.

You can't compare stock to modified as that isn't apples to apples.

Consider that an H22 at 10lbs of boost with a decent tune might put out about 300WHP. Now consider that a K20Z3 (which is 10% smaller in displacement) would put out an additional 60-70WHP under the same conditions. Stroke that K20 out to 2.2L using an F22C crank, and it will crap out another 50-100HP on top of that. So realistically, while making the newer engine the same size, you get nearly double the HP. And the K20 would be more streetable.

You will find the same result if you compare an original SBC to one of the LS series engines.

The point is that modern technology is the great equalizer that has allowed smaller, more efficient engines to make more power, less emissions, better performance/streetability and still maintain a greater level of reliability/durability.

[GhostAccord]

That's why I can't wait to see what I get out of my old 1970 500 Caddy engine. With a flat plane intake, 750cfm carb and simple ignition system it made 400 hp @ 4400 rpm and 550 lb·ft @ 3000 rpm. Have to wait and see what it will make with a good throttle body induction system, little bit more compression, larger cam, multi-port fuel injection and a computerized EMS.

[TheProfessional]

There are built K24A1s (basically the K's H23A1- econo VTEC, cam phasing on intake) making 200, 250, 300 WHP on pump gas no sweat. A fully built + bored + stroked H can't do that.

The car sitting right behind me with a 2.7L Bored, Stroked and Built H would protest to that. When it was in NA-Form.


In the END, My 2.7L H will be more streetable then the H with the K head (Because i'm going to have to run race gas at that high of a compression), all day, so while I see your point, let me state it clear that I ONLY went with a K head for personal aspirations and acclaim as I wanted to pursue a build that my budy completed, by I've more then accomplished the All motor 300whp goal with my current build before I boosted it, going H, using an Old Platform and going strickly Custom/After Market. <--Which constitutes thepoint I was trying to make.

Don't have to go new, can easily accomplish a WHP goal on a base platform if you know what steps to take and how to adequately take them.

[SOHC-FTW]

That's why I can't wait to see what I get out of my old 1970 500 Caddy engine. With a flat plane intake, 750cfm carb and simple ignition system it made 400 hp @ 4400 rpm and 550 lb·ft @ 3000 rpm. Have to wait and see what it will make with a good throttle body induction system, little bit more compression, larger cam, multi-port fuel injection and a computerized EMS.

Same engine in boss hog's caddy, i seen a test that caddy would walk on the 440 charger in the 1/4.

Although i love FI my foxbody will stay carb'd (Converted) and is more than capable of my power goals.

[GhostAccord]

Same engine in boss hog's caddy, i seen a test that caddy would walk on the 440 charger in the 1/4.

Although i love FI my foxbody will stay carb'd (Converted) and is more than capable of my power goals.

I thought about a six pack style carb setup. However, 8 individual throttle bodies and fuel injection is screaming my name. I have completely fallen for the tech side of cars now. When I first started working in a garage. I swallowed every word the old school carb guys told me. They always talked about how much better carbs were for power. Therefore, I hated EFI with a passion. I was all about the power back then. Since then, I have opened my eyes and found the fuel economy that you can get, while still having a high HP V8, using a MPFI (EMS) system.

[jdm92_accorn]

I love threads like this. Everybody has car A.D.D, lol. Back to the subject at hand h22 vs f22 torque vs hp, the h22 can build torque just like the f22. Just put a f22/h23 crank in it. From a daily grind perspective the h22 can make more dd friendly power. An f22 can easily make the same power with equivalent specs it just will idle like shit. The whole reason for the technology bump is to make more power reliably and consistently. Dyno test then Hot lap a h, a f and a k and then dyno test them again. The results will show what im talking about.

[HondaFan81]

Just skimmed this thread. It appears to me some are trying to justify the F22 vs the H22 because that has been an on going debate. Especially with F and H builds going on.

For the record, I've had a couple F22 NA builds and I have always acknowledged the H22 VTEC has better technology from a streetable performance perspective and easier to obtain goals (comparable to F22). The reason I chose the F22 NA projects were because of the challenge. Lets just say you learn to have an even better appreciation for the VTEC technology and the newer adjustable cam degree technology some engines have now.

[GhostAccord]

I agree. VVT, VTEC & DOHC all make tuning and correcting for improperly spec parts easier. You can basically throw together a DOHC VTEC with adjustable cam gears and any mix of parts to make decent power. Not so easy on the SOHC non VTEC.