My goal of 13s...

[deevergote]

That has nothing to do with it, I've built a few motors in my time.

Has nothing to do with what? You said you don't want to install cams because you don't want to open the motor. I said that installing cams doesn't require opening the motor...

Your going thirteens with that and a traction bar. That traction bar had better be comfortable because it will ride really stiff for a daily driver. take that into consideration before you do it. I personally would juice her up rather than boost her and use it with a progressive kit like zex.

I barely noticed any added stiffness in my ride with the traction bar (and you and I used the exact same traction bar... literally... I own the bar you used to own... )

[91H22ACB7]

Has nothing to do with what? You said you don't want to install cams because you don't want to open the motor. I said that installing cams doesn't require opening the motor...

I was referring to the simplicity factor, I took you previous statement as if I wasn't skilled enough to do it.

My hole point is to hit 13s with a bolt on setup on street tires with interior.

[deevergote]

Most people that don't want to open the motor are beginners... and there is nothing in your previous posts that belies your experience... so yes, in a way, I was assuming you were a beginner that was afraid to open the motor. My point stands... replacing a cam does not involve opening the motor. It's more complicated than most of the other modifications, but it doesn't involve opening the motor. Since you actually do have experience, that makes it even more of a valid suggestion.

And, what hole?

[91H22ACB7]

Most people that don't want to open the motor are beginners... and there is nothing in your previous posts that belies your experience... so yes, in a way, I was assuming you were a beginner that was afraid to open the motor. My point stands... replacing a cam does not involve opening the motor. It's more complicated than most of the other modifications, but it doesn't involve opening the motor. Since you actually do have experience, that makes it even more of a valid suggestion.

And, what hole?

Gotcha.

The point is to do it without them.

Whole*

[h22sparkle]

Has nothing to do with what? You said you don't want to install cams because you don't want to open the motor. I said that installing cams doesn't require opening the motor...


I barely noticed any added stiffness in my ride with the traction bar (and you and I used the exact same traction bar... literally... I own the bar you used to own... )

well the power i had at the time atleast i can say I had use for it but for him 13's I dont know mang.

[Flatline]

lets get technical lol. None of us are talking about motor here. motors are electrical. This is an engine.

moving on, Joe doesn't want to "open the motor" as in, touch any of the internals in the block or head. The car is a DD and any downtime is an issue. On top of that, this whole thing is about shutting up the people that like to hate on it.

If people dont hate on what your trying to do, then your doing it wrong lol.

[deevergote]

The engine is a giant air pump... it will only breathe as well as the greatest bottleneck allows.

Using a simple 1/4 mile calculator (not very accurate, but a rough estimate at least), a 3000lb CB7 would need somewhere around 200whp to run 13.9.
That means we are looking to add 55-60whp with I/H/E and an ECU tune?


The idea is great... a CB7 in the 13s that retains all luxuries and a nearly stock motor... but I honestly don't see how we're going to add 55whp with bolt on mods. The beast available header options are only capable of adding 20-22whp or so. Intake, exhaust, and intake manifold would give maybe another 15. ECU tune may extract another 5. We're only about 2/3 of the way there with all the major stuff done already. I don't see this as being possible without dropping weight or upgrading the cams.

[h22sparkle]

The engine is a giant air pump... it will only breathe as well as the greatest bottleneck allows.

Using a simple 1/4 mile calculator (not very accurate, but a rough estimate at least), a 3000lb CB7 would need somewhere around 200whp to run 13.9.
That means we are looking to add 55-60whp with I/H/E and an ECU tune?


The idea is great... a CB7 in the 13s that retains all luxuries and a nearly stock motor... but I honestly don't see how we're going to add 55whp with bolt on mods. The beast available header options are only capable of adding 20-22whp or so. Intake, exhaust, and intake manifold would give maybe another 15. ECU tune may extract another 5. We're only about 2/3 of the way there with all the major stuff done already. I don't see this as being possible without dropping weight or upgrading the cams.

I second that if hes going to go all out he had better throw some cams in there too and get a damn good tune along with the bolt-on parts you mentioned deev. This is the main reason why I went turbo and I got some form of vtec lol Mivec.

[91H22ACB7]

The engine is a giant air pump... it will only breathe as well as the greatest bottleneck allows.

Using a simple 1/4 mile calculator (not very accurate, but a rough estimate at least), a 3000lb CB7 would need somewhere around 200whp to run 13.9.
That means we are looking to add 55-60whp with I/H/E and an ECU tune?


The idea is great... a CB7 in the 13s that retains all luxuries and a nearly stock motor... but I honestly don't see how we're going to add 55whp with bolt on mods. The beast available header options are only capable of adding 20-22whp or so. Intake, exhaust, and intake manifold would give maybe another 15. ECU tune may extract another 5. We're only about 2/3 of the way there with all the major stuff done already. I don't see this as being possible without dropping weight or upgrading the cams.

What about gear ratios Deev?

Your making it seem really hard to make 200 wheel with a motor that makes 197 to the crank.

With all that aside, 2 weeks from now some parts will be ordered, as that is when I get my 'play' paycheck. =)

[98vtec]

Mounts are already taken care of, besides the torque mount which is coming my next day off.
I'm on the fence as far as a traction bar goes though, whether its really worth the money or not.



Yessir, I do believe with the right concoction of little things, I'll be able to manage it.

The big key will be in the tune.

The basemap I am on now is pretty rich as is.

sorry but you are going to need much more than an awesome tune.

dropping over a half second while staying on street tires and not going into the motor is gonna be.....hard...especially at full weight......driver skill will be a BIG role. id say if you didnt know exactly how to design your bolt ons to make the power needed to do it, you are gonna have a tough time.

[98vtec]

What about gear ratios Deev?

Your making it seem really hard to make 200 wheel with a motor that makes 197 to the crank.

With all that aside, 2 weeks from now some parts will be ordered, as that is when I get my 'play' paycheck. =)

gearing will play a big role in where you land in your power band but also how much differently you have to drive the car.

picking up 30whp from a motor that typically makes 160-175whp stock is asking a lot.

[91H22ACB7]

sorry but you are going to need much more than an awesome tune.

dropping over a half second while staying on street tires and not going into the motor is gonna be.....hard...especially at full weight......driver skill will be a BIG role. id say if you didnt know exactly how to design your bolt ons to make the power needed to do it, you are gonna have a tough time.

No reason to say sorry.

The main point of this is trying to accomplish something hard.

[deevergote]

What about gear ratios Deev?

Your making it seem really hard to make 200 wheel with a motor that makes 197 to the crank.

With all that aside, 2 weeks from now some parts will be ordered, as that is when I get my 'play' paycheck. =)

200whp with an H22A is not difficult... but... With the limited number of things you're allowing yourself to modify, yes... it IS difficult to make 200whp... and you're going to need more than that to get the car into the 13s unless you drop a significant amount of weight.

Gearing will help, sure... but are you planning on opening up the transmission for custom gears? The USDM Prelude has the shortest gearing of all, I believe... so that's as good as you're going to get. Plus, if you had super short gears to aid in acceleration, the car would not be very street-friendly.
98vtec makes a very good point about gearing and the engine's powerband as well...

gearing will play a big role in where you land in your power band but also how much differently you have to drive the car.

picking up 30whp from a motor that typically makes 160-175whp stock is asking a lot.

Precisely. Seeing as this will still be a largely stock H22A with bolt-on mods, any creativity done with the gearing may end up being detrimental (just as the F22A transmission's long gears result in an unfortunate upshift into the soggy area just before the VTEC crossover.)

No reason to say sorry.

The main point of this is trying to accomplish something hard.

I understand, and I appreciate your enthusiasm. The good part is, anything you do to accomplish your goal within the limits you are setting for yourself will still be useful if you need to modify those limits and open the motor.

However, what you're suggesting may be beyond "hard". To me, it sounds like you're trying to scale a 20' wall with a 6' rope. It's really not a matter of how smart you are, or how creative you are, or how hard you work... The engine's power limits are set by the engine's biggest bottleneck... and I'm fairly certain that you're going to be limited by a bottleneck that is not in the scope of your modification limits before you reach your goal.

My advice would be to modify the engine as much as you're willing... and then focus on shedding as much weight as you can within the limits of your plan. Carbon fiber hood and trunk, lightweight wheels and tires, removal of any unnecessary/unused components, etc... if you're a fatass, go on a diet (my car's fastest time was run by my friend, who at the time was 70lbs lighter than me.)

[98vtec]

if you were wanting to do it on slicks, this wouldnt be a big deal. but the full weight is still gonna kill it.

i did 14.0@97 with slicks on my stock internal h22a (made 173whp at the time) back in the day but had a good amount of weight reduction. It had a high 13 in it. I made 188whp before i went with my built motor but never got a chance to go back to the track.

i had about 2500-3000 in my stock setup weighing around 2700 lbs.

200whp is difficult when when start out at 170whp.

not trying to bring you down or anything but i like being realistic with people.

[deevergote]

Blake, what did you remove to get the weight to 2700lbs?