How Much Psi Is To Much

[MRX]

well said deevergote.

Boost_92
But back to topic here cause i'm trying to help. Earlier this month there was a cb7 member named blazen_accord, he blew his motor and i think he's doing a performance rebuild so the RC 390cc injectors (i think that was the cc's) he has won't be enough to supply the amount of fuel his engine would be asking for. I'd say find and private message him to find out if he'd sell them or not. If not then look for some 450 cc dsm injectors (don't pay more than $60 shipped) or get some RC 390 - 450cc injectors, don't count on ur friends prelude injectors to do the trick cause its just another honda that doesn't know what boost is. And i'm still yet to hear u say anything about a piggyback unit of some sort...please please get a piggyback. U know as well as anybody here if u want things to work do it right the first time and don't half-ass it cause the motor will blow.

[chessboxer]

okay, i call a truce. good luck with the turbo

[boost_92]

Truce sounds good to me. Keep building that cb7 and good luck with all your performance mods.

MIDNITE RACER X --- First of all THANK YOU for all your helpful posts and keep them comming. I do have the walbro 255 fuel pump. what brand of adj f.p.r. do you suggest? I'm looking for something along the lines of cheap but useful. My funds are kinda getting tapped out. Plus I have so many other things to finish on the car by May. Also what type of piggy back do you suggest? And what do they normally run $$$?

TO EVERYONE ELSE --- I never meant to put anyone down or seem like an ass. I'm just getting so frustrated with this whole turbo idea. I'm begining to wonder if all of the headaches are gonna be worth it. I always had a hard time understanding engines and what to do and what not to do for performance. I was always the type to customize the appearance b4 performance.
This is a whole new ballgame for me. Don't take offence to anything I've said in the past.

[deevergote]

Originally posted by boost_92
Truce sounds good to me. Keep building that cb7 and good luck with all your performance mods.

MIDNITE RACER X --- First of all THANK YOU for all your helpful posts and keep them comming. I do have the walbro 255 fuel pump. what brand of adj f.p.r. do you suggest? I'm looking for something along the lines of cheap but useful. My funds are kinda getting tapped out. Plus I have so many other things to finish on the car by May. Also what type of piggy back do you suggest? And what do they normally run $$$?

TO EVERYONE ELSE --- I never meant to put anyone down or seem like an ass. I'm just getting so frustrated with this whole turbo idea. I'm begining to wonder if all of the headaches are gonna be worth it. I always had a hard time understanding engines and what to do and what not to do for performance. I was always the type to customize the appearance b4 performance.
This is a whole new ballgame for me. Don't take offence to anything I've said in the past.

Will do!

Just remember, Turbo = Headache... at least when you're just learning about it. I just started learning, and it's a lot to swallow!

Appearance = Anxiety, as far as I'm concerned, so you've already mastered that realm... I would always be worried about potential damage to my ca if it was so perfectly done.... and I would be so mad if it got damaged. Hell, I'm mad at new dings on my car now, and it's gotta be the ugleist CB7 on this site! (that hasn't been crashed, anyway)

[blazen_accord]

I blew my motor at 12psi (became a boost additive) using RC 370cc injector, 255 walbro fuel pump and SAFC II on 147k miles f22a4 engine. fuel was part of the problem and the ECU was the main issue. Even on an wideband +dyno, the stock ECU with SAFC can only do so much.. Anything over 8psi you woud need a hondata to manage your ECU. any thing below 8psi an Apexi SAFC and bigger injector is ok, and less then 6psi an FMU (10:1-12:1) would be ok.

In your current setup 5-6 psi would be safe, and having an BOV help. but if you want to boost 8-10psi your fuel system need to be upgrade to bigger injector 330cc and above, an SAFC or hondata will be needed. and that 12:1 FMU will need to be removed.

Word of caution, injector work best at 40-50psi of fuel pressure, if your running say 8psi your fuel pressure would be 96psi( 12:1 ratio)+40psi stock fuel pressure, that 136psi maxing out your walbro pump, and asking your a blown ring on the injector= fused piston.

I'm rebuiding my F22A motor to handle 12psi of boost, and hope to run at the track this summer. but in th mean time, I'm staying at 7si until my engine is built up. oh look for DSM 450cc there are cheaper, RC injector go for $60-$75 each injector, but they are the best..

[Fearit22]

Originally posted by blazen_accord
I blew my motor at 12psi (became a boost additive) using RC 370cc injector, 255 walbro fuel pump and SAFC II on 147k miles f22a4 engine. fuel was part of the problem and the ECU was the main issue. Even on an wideband +dyno, the stock ECU with SAFC can only do so much.. Anything over 8psi you woud need a hondata to manage your ECU. any thing below 8psi an Apexi SAFC and bigger injector is ok, and less then 6psi an FMU (10:1-12:1) would be ok.

In your current setup 5-6 psi would be safe, and having an BOV help. but if you want to boost 8-10psi your fuel system need to be upgrade to bigger injector 330cc and above, an SAFC or hondata will be needed. and that 12:1 FMU will need to be removed.

Word of caution, injector work best at 40-50psi of fuel pressure, if your running say 8psi your fuel pressure would be 96psi( 12:1 ratio)+40psi stock fuel pressure, that 136psi maxing out your walbro pump, and asking your a blown ring on the injector= fused piston.

I'm rebuiding my F22A motor to handle 12psi of boost, and hope to run at the track this summer. but in th mean time, I'm staying at 7si until my engine is built up. oh look for DSM 450cc there are cheaper, RC injector go for $60-$75 each injector, but they are the best..

So are you saying the 255 fuel pump isn't good enough? I'm still trying to work out a turbo set up for this summer and I want to make sure I do everything right so my car doesn't get screwed up. I was planning on just using an safc, but you said that isn't good enough. Are you going to switch out your ecu? DSM injectors would be good for 15 psi wouldn't they? I plan on boosting to 15 psi, and I have a good idea of most everything I need but I just want to make sure and learn from people who have actually been there.

[blazen_accord]

The pump is ok, just that the injector need to be a bit larger if I want to run past 10psi. The SAFC would NOT be enough to run 10psi of boost. your timing and ignition maping is still for an NA stock setup. an ECU swap and chiped would be ok if you not planning on any changes on your setup but unless they can dyno and custom burn for your car, your not getting the best tuning nor reliable for your engine. Hondata piggyback or EMS (stand alone) is best for above 8psi and make more power and safer for the engine. BUt it does cost alot and tuning is not cheap. not everyshop know how to tune them.

my goal is to boost up to 15 psi, but only after getting hondata, 550cc, engine built up. Take it form me, getting the engine to run at higher boost is not a problem, But how long willthe engine last, 2 day..1 week..1 month..., I can do 14psi on stock internal. BUT don't expect the car engine to last more then a few day. at 12psi boost, my stock internal lasted about 3 day until, burnt valve, blown rings and head gasket. and kill 2 cylinder, and I was not even driving it hard, a few 20sec of full boost comming home from work had kill my engine, I was able to make it to my driveway before the engine blew up and die. and it only had 147K miles on it.

[WeDgE]

Sounds like you had some major fuel delivery problems...ex. running too lean...better luck next time..

[Fearit22]

So what happened with the valves? I know the springs and stuff can only handle so much pressure. Was 12 psi too much for them too or was it just because of failures in other parts of the engine?

[blazen_accord]

Don't know if it was a fuel problem, since I had it dyno tune at 10psi and running rich at 11:0 a/f ratio.

I think there was to much compression/combustion for the piston ring and valves to handle. possible I did not retard the timing enough only 1degree per psi, trying to get maxium power. I did not rev it to high only at 6200RPM redline so the valves spring was not the problem. but the valve was, stock valves can't handle that amount of heat and combustion at 12psi. The exhaust valves was burnt real bad, part of the valve faces has melted off and crack. the intake valve were not as bad.. remember the engine is over 10 year old, even honda quality built part does not last forever especially if the car is racing.

I truley believe back when the 4th gen came out on 1990-93, on a new engine I could have run 12psi with factory stock internal, but after 13 year those part are really worn out.

[boost_92]

Thank you Blazen_accord. You gave me alot to think about. Can you tell me what the lowest amount of boost a 14b turbo w/stock internal wastegate can run? I have no problem running 5 or 6psi of boost until i can afford to upgrade my ecu and injectors. I'm sure you already read my original post describing my setup. You see I've started about 3 other projects on the same car and my Turbo fund is runnin low. I need the car to be running and in a completed state by the end of April. I know that seems like a long time but it's never long enough.

[blazen_accord]

I also have a 14b turbo from an eclipse, but decide to use an T25 since it spool up fater and give me low-med power to drive around town. the internal spring on the wastegate will determine the amount of boost you will be able to run. I belive it at 6-7psi. but you will need a boost gauge install in your car to be sure.
since you do have walbro fuel pump and an 12:1 FMU, running at 6-7 psi is ok but you are going to run real rich and waste alot of gas and lower performance since the ECU will think you are still running non-turbo car, Your stock injector will not last long with that high fuel pressure, so look into DSM 390cc or 450cc injector on ebay or from the sales forum. They are cheap and cost about $75 for a set of 4 injector.

without proper tuning and piggyback control, you might get 130-135hp at the wheel at 6-7psi. that about 170HP at the crank. so dyno tune with bigger injector and piggyback ECU and you might make it to 190HP at the crank at 7-8psi.

One word of advice, don't be a boost addictive. that extra 2-3psi will end up killing you engine.

[MRX]

sorry guys i would have replied sooner but got preoccupied. Glad to see you figured out what the problem was and what exactly caused the failure. The main things needed to boost 8-12psi on stock internals are retarding the ignition, increasing the ignition's spark, putting the correct amount of fuel and fuel pressure in the combustion chamber at certain levels of boost, and keeping the incoming air temperature down so you don't predetonate. Resolving these problems without ever really touching the ecu can be done but will once again not get you as far as a standalone, high quality piggyback or hondata based ecu will get you. I'lll list the parts needed to safely run boost and i'm not tryin to brand specific but rather give you an idea of what function each unit and device does:

Retarding the ignition - Cam gear or MSD digital 6

Increasing ignition spark - MSD blaster coil
-Step 1 or 2 colder spark plugs
-8mm wires(use for the extra padding so the heat from the engine bay won't burn through the wires)
-MSD 6A

Fuel - Bigger injectors (around 450cc should hold good till around 14 psi)
-fuel pressure regualtor or FMU(i'd go with the FPR because putting 100+ psi of fuel through our stock fuel lines doesn't seem wise to me and like blazen said its a waste of gas). A good FPR IMO for a reasonable price would be from aeromotive or for your setup even and OBX, but since ur a show car spend the little extra and go for the AEM u'll probably pick up some engine points.
-walbro 255 lph fuel pump (to supply the injectors enough pressure and fuel)

Ecu trickery - The s-afc will be obselete at 14 psi but below that its great
- Most ecu chipping companies have a boost option and those would hold good till around 16 ish if done properly but you won't be able to change any of their settings as you add new parts
- Piggyback ecu's, i don't consider the s-afc a true piggyback ecu because it doesn't have the following features as say chrome, hondata s100, greddy e-manage, uberdata, and ect. These units have the ability to control/change/reprogram the ignition table, timing per pound of boost, fuel curve, speed limiter, rev limiter, and some others i can't quite think of at the moment. These units usually cost around $600-$1000 with boost option and can be retuned by a professional when there are additions/subtractions made to the car. Problem is finding a reputable shop who knows and understands the unit(s) and has done some work on a very similar car with good results.

Keeping everything cool to prevent detonation - Includes intercoolers
- piping not too close to the turbo or other large sources of heat
- colder plugs once again
- maybe aftermarket radiator
- fresh fluids (water, antifreeze, oil, etc.), i'd even add a water additive to be on the safe side


i don't think i've forgotten much of anything but i'll edit this as time goes on. And i was trying to list everything that doesn't normally come with a turbo setup. I know things like bigger exhaust, bov, and etc. help but i don't consider these tuning items like what i listed above. But they do in fact help

Blazen,
I honestly think from looking at ur setup that your problem was an ignition problem, both timing and power. I don't see anything like a blaster coil or ignition power upgrades to properly burn all the fuel and air you had going into your setup which would cause the extra heat and possibly lead to your valves and pistons being burnt. Also i noticed you said u were shifting at redline, what i'd really like to know is on your dyno graph were you still making power at redline? Because even with the turbo on power should still take a dramatic dive after 5600rpm on a stock engine.

Boost_92,
i'm glad to see your opening up to our comments and all cause at first it seemed like you were asking for advice you weren't gonna take in the first place but now everything is cool. The amount of research you do will play a major role in how well your project turns out. Go to www.homemadeturbo.com and read up on the
"new user faq's". Search for and look at every...yes every thread remotely related to your project. The more you know about turbos and more importantly how to decipher what parts to get for your tuning will be the lifeblood of your project. I've still got a month b4 i want to boost because i choose to learn everything i can b4 i start the project (as you can see i know quite a bit, but the little bit i don't know may be my downfall, ya know). You must know the difference between what you need for the setup and what you want. Just like i need a good FPR, but i want a 3"inch exhuast. Sacrifice for what you need you'll love yourself in the end

[Fearit22]

Thanks for listing all that stuff. I had pretty much all of that stuff in line except for some of the ignition. I already have an AEM cam gear waiting to go on. I got it brand new for $75 including shipping!

[boost_92]

THANKS AGAIN TO ALL! In a previous post of mine I made a statement about fooling the map sensor persay with a bunch of check valves in line to bleed off the boost. Well I came across something last night that I cant remember anyone mentioning in this forum. It is called a MISSING LINK by Synapse Engineering. You can visit their web site (www.synapseengineering.com) the ML002 is the one for the cb7. I was wondering if anyone has heard of or used one of these?

By the way if anyone is interested in one they run anywhere from $50-$75