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Troubleshooting lean condition on turbo H22

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    #1

    Troubleshooting lean condition on turbo H22

    Decided to start a new thread on this as the old thread listed here was a combo of small issues and happened over time, etc. Before I send this car to the tuners to get fixed I figured we could put our bright minds together and tackle this problem ourselves. And I say we, because I am no tuning expert. I am technical and I know the basics, but that's it (This winter was my first time connecting Hondata to the car to get graphs for troubleshooting). And i'm pretty much willing to try anything at this point so why not have some fun..........

    The issue. Click here for a list of parts on the car.

    - Started as the car stalling when coming to a stop. A/F showed 17+ for those few seconds it wanted to stall. Heat was a factor as the issue was more present the hotter the car got (points to O2).

    - Problem got worse over time and the last drive out it stayed pegged at 17+ A/F and wouldn't run. Car was limped home and issue is present upon starting now

    - Turbo setup is 2 summers old, so it's about time for something like this to fail.

    - Issues started after the car was stored for last winter and a bunch of work was done to it. The #1 change was the fuse box extension I made. But putting the fuse box back in the OEM spot, we still have the same issue, so just a coincedence I believe.

    - Took apart whole intake, throttle body, and inspected. All looks good.

    - Bench tested O2 sensor and electrical connector = good

    - Bench tested MAP sensor for proper ohms = good

    - Bench tested IACV = good. BUT, IACV wires only getting 11V to it, can someone comment on this?

    - Cleaned IACV

    - TPS sensor tested = good

    - Replaced ECT sensor, it seemed a bit off but this did not solve the issue

    - Made sure the battery / ALT were good. Although both need to be replaced as they are old, all tests pass with the car off and running

    - ^^^^^^ All all of these sensor show good on the Hondata graphs too. But as you can see in this graph as soon as the gas is let off, the RPMS drop and the A/F goes throught he roof. Normal to a degree, but the car can't "catch itself" to correct idle.


    In this graph you can see the worst of it. A/F pegged after coming back to idle. Nothing else in the graphs help indicate a cause (batt voltage, injectors, O2, etc.)



    -==============================================

    My speculations............

    1. Bad injectors. I have yet to have the injectors tested / cleaned
    2. Bad AEM O2, although all test tell me it is good
    3..........act of god



    But throw some ideas at me. I'm willing to try just about anything. I can get you graphs, voltages, etc. I plan on starting the car again soon once it warms up (in the next month). & Thanks
    Tags: None
    #2
    i would start with a new o2 from aem since its the cheapest option.

    i am not actually understanding your graph as your AF says 1.26, why isnt it in the teens? lean should be 16+ at idle(15.2 being "optimal")

    Comment

      #3
      Originally posted by 93redcb7 View Post
      i would start with a new o2 from aem since its the cheapest option.

      i am not actually understanding your graph as your AF says 1.26, why isnt it in the teens? lean should be 16+ at idle(15.2 being "optimal")
      Ya, good idea. You just need to convert .....

      17+ = lean
      14.7 = normal / stoichiometric (aka = 1.0 in the graph)
      13 - = rich

      Comment

        #4
        Originally posted by Raf99 View Post
        Ya, good idea. You just need to convert .....

        17+ = lean
        14.7 = normal / stoichiometric (aka = 1.0 in the graph)
        13 - = rich
        yea ive never seen it like that before, the only tuning ive done is with crome and it showed up as 12-19(or something like that)
        your battery voltage seems to be a bit on the lower side, though i doubt that would do something like this

        Comment

          #5
          Originally posted by 93redcb7 View Post
          yea ive never seen it like that before, the only tuning ive done is with crome and it showed up as 12-19(or something like that)
          your battery voltage seems to be a bit on the lower side, though i doubt that would do something like this
          Yep. Hoping to get a new battery and alternator for it before the summer, although all tests show them as good.

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Raf99 View Post
            Yep. Hoping to get a new battery and alternator for it before the summer, although all tests show them as good.
            curious as to why your ignition timing is all over the place also

            Comment

              #7
              wheres fuel pressure at? still using oem regulator? also, make sure vacuum source is good. my cl would go lean under throttle and boost because i was using oem fuel pump and it just couldnt deliver enough fuel.
              COUPE K24

              Comment

                #8
                Originally posted by 93redcb7 View Post
                curious as to why your ignition timing is all over the place also
                Beyond my experience (over my head), what should it look like?


                Originally posted by '93CB7Ex View Post
                wheres fuel pressure at? still using oem regulator? also, make sure vacuum source is good. my cl would go lean under throttle and boost because i was using oem fuel pump and it just couldnt deliver enough fuel.
                Walbro 255lph fuel pump, fuel gauge at the fuel rail, I think OEM regulator. I can check tonight.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Raf99 View Post
                  Beyond my experience (over my head), what should it look like?



                  Walbro 255lph fuel pump, fuel gauge at the fuel rail, I think OEM regulator. I can check tonight.
                  well the table should look pretty linear, but it could just be its trying to stable out because of the loss of fuel and its knocking... do you have the knock sensor enabled?
                  also have you tried driving it? are the AFR's normal driving?

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by 93redcb7 View Post
                    well the table should look pretty linear, but it could just be its trying to stable out because of the loss of fuel and its knocking... do you have the knock sensor enabled?
                    also have you tried driving it? are the AFR's normal driving?
                    To my knowledge the knock sensor is enabled. And I use to be able to drive it and the A/F was fine, the issue only happened at idle. But the key word there is "use to". Last time I started it the issue was present right away, this was after the last time I had it out, it severely started to fail, knock, spit, sputter, and stalled. I was close to home and coasted it home.

                    This weekend I'll try to start it and post some info.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      I don't even understand the ignition timing. I've read the help file, and I understand its the spark timing of the car, so the ECU is adjusting it as it wants to? which is where we see 30deg. ignition ?

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Ok,
                        - using AEM fuel rail and regulator


                        - 40psi fuel pressure


                        - knock sensor is disabled



                        Sooooo let's start it and see what happens! OF Course it's going to behave, lol. It eventually did make it to 14.7 A/F when it warmed up a bit. On the below graph you can see it was at .95 which is maybe 14A/F.



                        Give it some gas...., I believe it's normal for the A/F to shoot through the roof after returning to idle, but just for a second.



                        So like last summer, works great when started and gets worse the hotter it gets. So far everything is pointing to the O2 sensor. I was hoping to wait for a warmer day to let it run for a while which should be soon. We'll see if it starts to do what it did last summer which was....

                        - start car, blip throttle, recovers fine
                        - 10min later, blip throttle, car goes lean and doesn't recover as well
                        - 20min later, blip throttle, car goes lean and wants to stall, stays lean...
                        - 30min later, can't get car to snap out of the lean

                        Not sure i can check for vacuum without a gauge, or in general? (where?)

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Raf99 View Post
                          Ok,
                          - using AEM fuel rail and regulator


                          - 40psi fuel pressure


                          - knock sensor is disabled



                          Sooooo let's start it and see what happens! OF Course it's going to behave, lol. It eventually did make it to 14.7 A/F when it warmed up a bit. On the below graph you can see it was at .95 which is maybe 14A/F.



                          Give it some gas...., I believe it's normal for the A/F to shoot through the roof after returning to idle, but just for a second.



                          So like last summer, works great when started and gets worse the hotter it gets. So far everything is pointing to the O2 sensor. I was hoping to wait for a warmer day to let it run for a while which should be soon. We'll see if it starts to do what it did last summer which was....

                          - start car, blip throttle, recovers fine
                          - 10min later, blip throttle, car goes lean and doesn't recover as well
                          - 20min later, blip throttle, car goes lean and wants to stall, stays lean...
                          - 30min later, can't get car to snap out of the lean

                          Not sure i can check for vacuum without a gauge, or in general? (where?)
                          14.7 is where it should be at idle, and cruise. if its been sitting for a long time.. id change the gas to
                          vacuum looks fine(check with your boost gauge lol)
                          also on a side note, your ign timing looks a ton better on this datalog
                          and yes its normal for AFR to spike when coming back down to idle for a second
                          Last edited by 93redcb7; 03-13-2017, 07:33 PM.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Have you looked at coolant temp sensor? Assuming that is the ect you are referring too, can you elaborate on what was going on with it? Also, have you verified the grounds in this region to be solid?





                            It seems odd that the problem is specific to the car getting to operational temps before the problem hits. Perhaps your temp sensor is giving bad feedback.

                            Is your voltage coming out of the alternator consistent?


                            What is the injector pulse look like during the lean condition?


                            Have you looked at your fuel pressure when lean happens?



                            I am also wondering if your ground to your injector resistor box is bad. Just a thought
                            Originally posted by wed3k
                            im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Originally posted by 93redcb7 View Post
                              14.7 is where it should be at idle, and cruise. if its been sitting for a long time.. id change the gas to
                              vacuum looks fine(check with your boost gauge lol)
                              also on a side note, your ign timing looks a ton better on this datalog
                              and yes its normal for AFR to spike when coming back down to idle for a second
                              Thank you Sir

                              Originally posted by toycar View Post
                              Have you looked at coolant temp sensor? Assuming that is the ect you are referring too, can you elaborate on what was going on with it? Also, have you verified the grounds in this region to be solid?

                              It seems odd that the problem is specific to the car getting to operational temps before the problem hits. Perhaps your temp sensor is giving bad feedback.

                              Is your voltage coming out of the alternator consistent?
                              What is the injector pulse look like during the lean condition?
                              Have you looked at your fuel pressure when lean happens?
                              I am also wondering if your ground to your injector resistor box is bad. Just a thought
                              Appreciate the reply. I was associating the temp with a failing O2. ECT sensor was replaced, I found the other one to be a bit off. But this would of maybe read 30F off. All other questions are valid and relative and give me some items to test. Thanks.

                              - Grounds in the region are solid.
                              - I haven't checked the injector pulse or fuel pressure when it happens because I didn't want to harm the engine. (and i'm not sure how to check injector pulse, doubt I have the proper scan tools)

                              - The alternator needs to be replaced. (original ALT and has been leaked on and cleaned, etc). Shows proper voltage with car on.

                              - Injector resistor box, was actually moved behind the fender. Looking at the manual i don't see any ground for the box itself and the injectors are grounded through the ECU.

                              But your other suggestions need to be tested. But first thing is first, make the problem return. And I'm assuming as soon as the engine warms up the problem will return and I'll take some vids. But I have to wait until it's not -13F outside. Should be soon.

                              Comment

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