H22 turbo build from the bottom to the top

[kratemertyl]

nothing revolutionary gonna happen here fellas, maybe next time i will try something new but for my first build i will follow the footsteps of our predecessors.

after my f22 threw a main bearing, lost the oil pump and blew the clutch all at the same time i decided to step up to a h22a from japan star motors (bad idea)
after only a few days on the road motor locked up from a seized rod bearing. so the chance to rebuild was there.

from the bottom up, i have a pretty good idea of all the parts i will be using.
i first read the honda/acura performance book and am currently half way through maimum boost. hopefully afterward i will feel some what more confident about putting this thing back together.

everything is currently dissasembled.everything. i shipped the block off to Dan Benson for sleeves and an allign hone. i am currently in search of a good h22 crankshaft. once i find one i will also ship to him for a micro polish and balance. once back i will attempt to assemble the rotating assembly with
-9:1 CP piston and Manely rods
-ACL bearings
-Ks tuned ballance shaft elimintor kit
-and APR main studs

for the head i have started a minor polish of the exhaust ports, will post pics when finshed. also plan to use
-Skunk2 springs and tt retainers
-BC turbo cams
-Skunk2 cam gears
-APR head studs
-DNJ head gasket
-newish rockers

for fuel delivery,
-320lph AEM intank fuel pump
-AEM fuel rail
-AEM FPR
-Grams 1000cc injectors

for ignition all i know so far is that i need to start with colder then oem plugs. as far as the rest of the system i have read that the stock igniton is only good for ranges of about 10lbs of boost so i may have to upgade

and for the fun stuff,
-ramhorn deisgn mainifold from go-autoworks with 44mm waste gate flange
-Tseries billet BB Turbonetics turbo with T3 .85 a/r turbine housing with 65mm turbine wheel with T04S compressor housing with the HPC61 wheel
-44mm Tial waste gate
-Garrett bar and plate FMIC with 2.5" pipnig
-Tial BOV
-triple core half sized radiator
-Vibratnt 3" straigh through exhaust from downpipe back
-

and to bring it all together a p28 mapped and tuned on v300 hondata
-AEM oil pressure gauge, fuel pressure gauge, oil temp gauge
4bar MAP sensor and a wideband o2 kit

it seems like alot of work right now so im jus trying to take one componet at a time. hopefully get the head done in the next week or two while waiting on the block to come back
stay tuned

[deevergote]

Don't bother with the adjustable cam gears. They cause more trouble than they're worth.
Don't get Type S cams, as they're made for N/A applications. Stick to the stock cams. If you want to upgrade, go with a set of turbo cams. N/A cams have too much overlap to be useful for turbo (c'mon man... that stuff is in the Kojima book!)

1000cc injectors might be overkill, depending on your target horsepower. Be sure to research and get injectors that best suit your situation.


Overall, your plan seems like a good one. Good call going to Benson for the sleeves. One of the best names in the business, from what I've read!

[kratemertyl]

yea from my understanding the stock cams are best suited. when i was looking into the brian crower turbo cams the specs on the lift and duration were very close to those of the type s i guess thats why i thought they would be a good fit.

i just finished the chapter about fuel requirments, i need to re work the math a few times (never been my strong suite) and come up with the right size injector.

benson as been awesome to work with. after getting dicked around by darton for three weeks i said hell with them. dan deals with you personally and i belive i can trust his advice.

[deevergote]

Lift and duration are only a part of the equation. Lobe separation angle plays a large role as well.

[sonikaccord]

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1708418

Here is a comparison of stock vs F20B cams. Adjustable gears can help with overlap.

[toycar]

valve overlap on a turbo car can be a great thing. Not sure what the shit you guys are reading, but, overlap on a turbo car is all about managing cylinder pressure.


No overlap will build boost later, and choke on a higher RPM. Its all in your design/intentions as to what will be best for you. Have fun trying to rev to 8,000 rpm's with no valve overlap and any pressure at all coming out of that compressor. The same engine that rev's to say, 10k rpm's will build boost slower than one that chokes at 7,000. Thing is, cfm's power turbos. Your engine produces cfm's based on a few things and one of the most important is rotational speed. You gain a lot of cfm's by being able to spin the motor faster, and more cfm's equate to more exhaust pressure to power your compressor.


So really, it just depends on what you are doing. For lower end performance, less overlap is ideal. For a dyno queen, 600+whp monster, welp, your going to need valve overlap to flow that much air and thats all there is to it. This is why k series motors are making so much power actually. Being able to adjust the cam timing in addition to the valve timing allows for ideal management of cylinder pressure. Its all about cylinder pressure guys. 100% about cylinder pressure. If you cannot make pressure in the cylinder at whatever rpm you want the engine to perform at, you won't make dick for power.

End of story. I wouldn't run OEM cams for anything turbo charged if you were really doing a "top to bottom" build.

My thoughts.


***Edit***


Pulled from dsm tuners and considered reliable/accurate information;


Advancing Intake and Exhaust : This will provide the car with more bottom end power, and will decrease top end. Advancing both cam gears will move overlap earlier but will not increase it.

Retarding Intake and Exhaust : This will increase the cars top end, but will decrease low end. Retarding both cam gears will move the overlap later and but will not change the amount of overlap.

Advance Exhaust Only : This will help the cars top end, and it reduces overlap.

Retard Exhaust only : This will help the cars mid range power, very useful for cars with big turbos / big cams. By increasing overlap, It decreases lag significantly. Doing this will bring the boost on all at once. Very common DSM modification.

Advance Intake only : This will increase overlap and helps the cars bottom end and mid range power. This mod will bring the turbo on all at once, although isnt a very common mod for DSMS.



Wether you advance the intake or retard the exhaust, increasing valve overlap = power on most turbo cars. Especially dsm's. There is obviously a threshold, but, valve overlap is a good thing on turbo cars. It is.

Thread link;

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyli...-degreing.html





And just so its out there, most people install 280 cams +1 advanced for intake, -3 retarded for exhaust for the best performance. Valve overlap is your friend in forced induction. You don't want the intake valve choking the compressor. Common missconception about turbo motors. You let the turbo power the motor. The motor doesn't power thet turbo. The motor needs to breath freely under peak boost which is why valve overlap matters so much on a turbo engine. The air coming into the cylinder has already been compressed.


Let the turbo control air flow basically is what I am saying.

[kratemertyl]

holy shit im in over my head here. it seemed so much simpler in the begining, take out old parts, put in new shiney parts and boom, power.

i dont want a dyno queen nor do i want to have power that cant be transfered to the ground.

i figured cam adjustablity was gonna be neccesary because of the compression change that was gonna be happening with the new pistons, and for the fine tunning of timing.

i guess i was kinda right since you say its all about pressure.

i will look into this 280 came u speak of. i kinda looked over all this cam stuff because i thought stock (mild) was best

[toycar]

holy shit im in over my head here. it seemed so much simpler in the begining, take out old parts, put in new shiney parts and boom, power.

i dont want a dyno queen nor do i want to have power that cant be transfered to the ground.

i figured cam adjustablity was gonna be neccesary because of the compression change that was gonna be happening with the new pistons, and for the fine tunning of timing.

i guess i was kinda right since you say its all about pressure.

i will look into this 280 came u speak of. i kinda looked over all this cam stuff because i thought stock (mild) was best

280 cam is just a descriptive name, and its specific to dsms. I guess I should've been more clear about that.


All I was getting at was valve overlap is your friend when running a turbo engine, and I would never run an OEM cam on a custom turbo charged motor that was previously n/a.


Thats all.

You should think about what engine speed(rpm) you'll spend the most time driving at and what you want it to do when you are there. Then, build around that. A hot set of cams with tons of valve overlap isn't the end all answer. The valve being opened for certain durations allows the cylinder to flow certain amounts of air. If the valve was open 100% of the time, it would flow 100% of its potential right?

SO, the valve closing just slows that down to better manage cylinder pressure across the desired rpm range.

Sorry if I am being vague. Im trying to be understandable.

[Sordz]

Good setup, similar to mine.

I'd recommend a wideband, also a boost solenoid so you can setup boost by gear for traction. I'm not a expert on cams but since you can make 700+whp with stock cams I would(did) invest that money in traction, braking, or tuning.

I predict a "Transmission for turbo build from the bottom to the top" soon

[deevergote]

These guys have far more experience and knowledge than I do, so I'll bow out of this one. My comments about overlap came from the Honda/Acura Engine Performance book mentioned in the initial post. The information is well over a decade old at this point, but I figured such things wouldn't have changed over time. Perhaps the information in the book was flawed.

[kratemertyl]

toy,
ok 280 is out the window. so i guess the car will mostly be in 4th gear 4k rpm. the best part about goin fast for me is always the jump off the line. for traction issues i guess i jus figuerd that was probably not gonna be its prime area.
vauge is good for now while im still learning this, im trying to get on the fast track of learning so i can order once and order right.
so how do i go about determining desired cam angle(not sure if thats a real term) for a desired speed range? im sure its way more indepth then u care to explain. but if im looking at cam i need to stay away from N/A cams right? only look for stuff that says tubo behind it. i had a set of the BC stage 2 turbo cams in my shopping cart but havent dared hit buy on anything yet.

sord,
wideband o2 sensor and boost by gear, check
i should be getting delivery of my ESP traction bar setup in a week or two
i put on new steel braided brake lines,EBC pads and freshly turned rotors. im gonna wait till the car is running good and then next year i will upgade the rotors and calipers to some big boys
transmission is also something that i will start on after the motor is right. i hope for now my T2T4 lsd will do fine

deev,
i appreciate the time and dont disregard any advice. i know how to take shit apart and put it back together. the indepth engineering behind a properly setup and healthy machine is gonna take more then just my basic fundementals.

im not looking for anybody to build my car for me, loving the help for sure but other then this form all i have is my books. im not in the scene anymore and dont associate with anybody else that has a car they dont just drive to work. so nobody to bounce ideas off. i got a guy i will use for the dyno and tune but thats all.

[toycar]

Good setup, similar to mine.

I'd recommend a wideband, also a boost solenoid so you can setup boost by gear for traction. I'm not a expert on cams but since you can make 700+whp with stock cams I would(did) invest that money in traction, braking, or tuning.

I predict a "Transmission for turbo build from the bottom to the top" soon

Surprising to see those kind of numbers on oem cams. I'd have to wonder what that powerband looked like. Adjusting cam profiles changes everything about the power band when going from n/a cam to turbo cam. Anyways, I'm not advocating for any one thing, just wanted to point out that valve overlap on a turbo engine is important.


Thats all. Eventually the valve closing event becomes a restriction for the compressed air and allowing the turbo to breathe is ultimately what you are after when going for big power.


I have no idea what the op is after for performance though, so, yeah. Just wanted to add my .02 on valve overlap specifically.

[kratemertyl]

power wise, id love to give you an exact number for bhp but the truth is i have no idea what a 500hp honda feels like. this is not a DD jus a car i could never part with, that i will keep forever.
i wanna jump in it and have fun. put it on the track once in awhile, run it on the strip to handle up on some mustangs and drive my wife to the grocery store and scare the shit out of her.
since i got the car 15 years ago my dad has gave me shit about it callin it a peice. next time i take him for a drive, i want him walking away impressed and eating his words.
i figured id set a goal of 500,(for part selection) and if i landed at 400 or 600 that would be jus fine. im not gonna put it on the rollers and see 490 with it running superb and decide to go crazy and pump it up some more.
performance wise i guess i want a car thats comparable to say a 07 TL as far as grip and handeling goes and the power of a 05 GTO, but faster. all i can do is think of cars that i really enjoyed driving in and try to duplicate it. lots of pull without being a wheel hopping maniac

as far as cams i was under the impression that you wanted low duration and very limited over lap. so im confused on y you say the opposite but then recomend turbo cams that seem to do just that. i may be reading it wrong though. eveything else makes sense so i may not be understanding the degree specs clearly

http://realstreetperformance.com/Sho...lude-H22A.html

[toycar]

Valve overlap can hurt and help. It has thresholds on either end of the spectrum, depending on what you are trying to accomplish-it may or may not benefit you.


Hi hp motors need to breath. DD's aren't hi hp motors.

For what you are shooting for, 500whp, you'll need valve overlap to accomplish that.

[kratemertyl]

i can dig it.