93 Accord EX coupe F22A build

[BurtonRiderT6]

Like Deev, I'm not one to be intellectual in this but I am in fact building my CB that has sat for over a year since I bought it with a blown motor.

I purchased M.I.D. sleeves, Bisimoto Rod/Piston combo and bearing kit, and a Kaizenspeed oil pump and balance shaft eliminator kit combo. I plan to bring it up to the local performance machine shop. Now before I go make an ass out of myself up there, I was wondering about the whole balancing of the crankshaft. I've read that you only need the crank, and I've also read where they will balance your rotational mass, crank w/pistons, clutch, flywheel, etc. Which would be the correct way to do this as well as being cost efficient? I'm thinking if the crank is balanced and everything else is new, then it should be fairly balanced. My only reason for asking is because I might have to go buy more parts before I go to the machine shop.

My goal for my build long term is to build an F to hold 300-400whp boosted. Right now I just want to build the bottom end and get the car running with the stock head (slight tune due to the bump in compression from Bisimoto pistons/rods) so that I can drive it. I figure once the bottom is done I shouldn't have to pull it again.

I made the thread in here because I'm not trying to filter through 30 posts of "good luck with build" and "sounds good" comments.

[Jarrett]

The clutch disc was news to me before I started my build thread. I had always been under the impression that, as a wear item, the friction disc being balanced would become a moot point after the first 500 miles when the glazing and some measurable amount of fiber has been worn off. Others don't see it that way. I'm not balancing my setup this time, though. It will only be what I run until I get my other engine built so I'm not terribly concerned with it.

[BurtonRiderT6]

Ok so I went and made my deposit to the machine shop yesterday to order my sleeves. As I was talking to one of the machinists I told him that my goal was to boost the engine, but for right now I just want the bottom end built and run the stock head to drive the car.

Now I'm getting Darton MID sleeves and using Bisi's 86mm piston/rod combo. The machinist told me that they will have to bore it out more for boost. He told me it should still be ok to drive N/A and that it may just be a little noisey when the engine is cold. He said a loose engine is better than a tight one. Anyone else have some insight?

I'm trusting that they know what they're talking about as they do have a good reputation in my area. Just trying to be more informed.

[Jarrett]

The reason he's telling you that is because of the expansion properties of forged pistons. When they're cold, or at ambient temperature, they're somewhat smaller than they are when they reach their operating temperature. This unintentional additional clearance gives just enough room for the piston to rock back and forth in the bore ever so slightly. Not an amount you would be able to tell by looking at it, but you'd hear it on start-up. A similar principle is also true for long stroke, short rod engines. A few years back, when the Ford 5.4L modular V8 had the longest production stroke of any vehicle, there were problems with piston slap because of the sidewall pressure the long stroke exerts on a cylinder. This was even more prevalent in the Lightning that used forged pistons as the properties of the forged pistons exacerbated the issue.

Then, once a forged piston reaches its operating temperature it becomes roughly the size of the bore minus whatever estimated clearance the machinist meant to attain when he bored the cylinders. The added issue when turbocharging an engine is that the extreme pressures create extreme heat. This heat will cause the forged pistons to expand even more so. Instead of running tighter clearances and getting to a point where your engine could seize itself it's best to bore for what the clearance will need to be when the piston is at its hottest. Then just deal with piston slap and the potential for blow-by until the car is up to temperature. Ideally, you don't want to be smashing on the throttle as soon as you get into a turbocharged car anyway. The oil hasn't heated up and can't properly lube the impeller shaft.

[BurtonRiderT6]

Ok, so my pistons/rods should be here today from Bisi. Tomorrow I'm gonna drop the block off at Abacus Racing so they can sleeve it when the sleeves come in. So I've been trying to do more pre planning.

I was looking into turbo's and sizing to determine what I want. My problem is that the formula's all require a peak HP RPM and a peak TQ RPM to determine where I'd fall on the compressor map. My problem with this is that I am in fact still planning so none of my numbers are solid, just really rough guesses based off stock numbers. I'm assuming your peak HP and TQ will really depend on your camshaft profile, correct? Using the stock camshaft to determine all of that will mean nothing since I plan to have extensive head work and using either Bisi's 1.2 turbo cam or the 2.4 turbo cam. How is one to plan an engine build with so many unknown variables? Can I run either turbo cam on an N/A setup to get my base numbers?

Perhaps I should have this thread moved to the general public so I'm not having a one on one with Jarrett?

[BurtonRiderT6]

I was looking into turbo's and sizing to determine what I want. My problem is that the formula's all require a peak HP RPM and a peak TQ RPM to determine where I'd fall on the compressor map. My problem with this is that I am in fact still planning so none of my numbers are solid, just really rough guesses based off stock numbers. I'm assuming your peak HP and TQ will really depend on your camshaft profile, correct? Using the stock camshaft to determine all of that will mean nothing since I plan to have extensive head work and using either Bisi's 1.2 turbo cam or the 2.4 turbo cam. How is one to plan an engine build with so many unknown variables? Can I run either turbo cam on an N/A setup to get my base numbers?

Can anyone answer this for me?

[MRX]

There's a lot of info you could probably use right off of this board. For instance, the boosted Accord sticky in this turbo section. Find dyno graphs of various F22's and see where they make their peak numbers (make note of their cam setup of course). You'll get a range undoubtedly but you can use that range to decide if one turbo is too big or another might potentially be too small. Turbo sizing is a lot of guesswork and fudged numbers. You should also try to calculate where you'll be in the lower air flow sections of the compressor maps. This way you can try to prevent surging.

I tend to calculate quite a few points on the compressor map so I'm sure I'm spending lots of time in the center island since it's the most efficient part of the map. So instead of one point I calculate the best fitting line. Hope this helps.

[BurtonRiderT6]

Well whats a turbo build without complications?

So my machine shop was sent sleeves for an S2000 due to the fact that they haven't made sleeves for the F22A in quite sometime. Darton told us they could send out H22 sleeves since everything is identical except the bore (87mm). Problem there is I have already purchased Bisi's 86mm piston rod combo. So my options are limited at this point I suppose. Bisi doesn't open for 2 more hours so I can call and ask about an exchange.

I'm assuming I can't just swap to H pistons since the rods that came with Bisi's combo are longer and would require the wrist pin to be closer to the pin face, correct?

[BurtonRiderT6]

Spoke to one of the guys at Bisimoto about my dilemma. They'll take the pistons back with a 25% restocking fee (sucks). I'll end up getting a custom spec'd coated piston now.

Now if I have to run 87mm minimum why not bump up to 89mm since the sleeves go 90mm max? Would the gains be that noticeable? Or would leaving the extra 1mm of sleeve wall be more beneficial?

In doing so what would be the head complications? Could the combustion chamber for an F22 be opened up to an 89mm bore?

[Jarrett]

That sucks to hear how the sleeve situation is working out. I'd expect Darton to come through with something for you. If anything just to help offset the cost of the new pistons. As for the bore size, going larger is always beneficial. In a turbo engine it simply becomes a matter of whether or not it's worth it. You can always play with the boost level to get to a higher power level that may have been achieved with an overbore. But, for those going for every last drop of power, you do both. Just understand the risk with thinner cylinder walls. With Darton MID sleeves, though, cylinder wall strengths on a street-driven car aren't much of a concern. Even on an 89mm bore.

As for the cylinder head, just chamfering the circumference of the combustion chamber is enough to eliminate the exposed ridge in the cylinder head. If you wanted to go crazy then certain companies like Endyn can actually enlarge the entire diameter or the combustion chamber to match the bore. This becomes advantageous when you want to go with larger valves. Beyond chamfering it's not really necessary, though.

[BurtonRiderT6]

Ok, so Darton can't make a single set. After talking with my machine shop we're gonna go with an 87.5mm bore due to the fact that one of the other employees there said that the sleeves hold up but the head gaskets don't. No biggie to me as I'm looking to get between 300-400whp.

I have one question regarding the piston coatings, is it really worth it to get the coating?

I ask this because when I call Bisi back, I'm going to ask them to drop the restocking fee. If they do then I'll get the coating and continue to do business with them. If they refuse to drop the fee then I'm just going to get the pistons and be done with them.