All-out CB7 build to race bikes - need advice from the gurus

[rexload]

You're going to want higher compression and less rebound in the shocks than a typical autocross or road race setup. Unfortunately, adjustable shocks like the Koni yellow are fixed compression and adjustable rebound. Cheap coilover like function & form adjust the rebound and compression together which is no good either. I suggest Bilstein Shocks and a shock dyno. As far as springs go, you want a higher rear ride frequency than the front.

Removing all compliance from the rest of the suspension and chassis would pay large dividends as well. This means replacing all the bushings with aluminum, delrin, etc. or even sphericals.

A traction bar and roll cage area a must.

Keep in mind the vehicle weight is going to be a large limiting factor. If you have more than one seat in the car you're doing it wrong.

This is indeed good information and I will look into getting double-adjustable shocks.

Here is a good article I found which explains a lot of what you are talking about for noobs like myself.
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/art...king-behavior/

Here is an interesting quote from this article. It looks like off-the-shelf shocks can actually be modified for my specific needs.

"For instance, if you bought off-the-shelf Konis or Bilsteins, you can have the internal valving modified so that it reacts more quickly or offers more resistance in bump or rebound. Koni shocks that initially came with only adjustable rebound can be upgraded to double-adjustable specs (both adjustable rebound and bump). Likewise, Shocktek can convert non-adjustable Bilsteins to either single- or double-adjustable specs. This can be done at a substantial savings when compared to purchasing new shocks. At the time of the upgrade, you could also have the valving modified to suit your specific type of racing."


As for suspension bushings - I would like to go with delrin

Roll cage - I am a little confused on this.
If I install a full cage (not just a roll-bar) - that means I will have to drive with a helmet. Now, while the car is only going to be driven ocassionally, I do want it to be 100% drivable on the street... and driving with a helmet I'm going to look like a clown.

Weight - yes, definitely a limiting factor, but once again, I'd like to keep it street legal.. and that means all seats have to be installed for safety inspection. So this will sure be a challenge.

If you want to stay as cheap as possible, stick to the F22A. You can make the power you want with a turbo F22A. H22A will just introduce more expense (even if it's just due to the additional head components.)

Are you planning on racing this at the track, or on the street? At the track, you'd probably be fine with a set of Koni Yellow shocks and a decent set of springs (2" drop or so). I've had no stability issues with konis on full stiff in the rear when racing. Then again, I'm running 15s, not 10s... I really think they only way to determine optimal suspension settings would be to get a quality adjustable suspension and tweak it at the track. Start on a softer setting to ensure stability, and keep stiffening it until you begin to notice the car getting squirly. Do it carefully, and be aware of what's going on, and it should be relatively safe.
Additional chassis braces will always help, too. Anything to keep the torque at the wheels, rather than have it transferred elsewhere.


As for torque, apexbender... the turbo will make more torque than a FWD platform can easily put down. No need to go big! Torque is important, but with a FWD car, it becomes a problem when you can't harness it. That's one of the reasons Honda has opted for low-torque, high-RPM performance engines. Of course, Honda doesn't give a damn about drag racing...

F22 vs H22 - The F22 would certainly be more cost effective IF I can reach my goals with it without "experimenting" much (as that will just translate into more expenses)
Also, the F22 would be a more of a minimalistic way to go - which adds to the simplisity and I definitely like the idea.

My logic behind thinking about going with the H22 is basically that there is just more information available about the H22 on what parts work together well and what parts don't work as well.

I want the engine to have a very strong top-end from about 5000-7800rpm (roughly) without the power falling off. So I am assuming the F22 head can be modified and paired with the right cam to accomodate that.


Track vs street - I want this to be a street car. It may see the track but it is not going to the track in a trailer. I'd like the suspension to be very predictable and forgiving for bumps on regular highways. Basically safety and stability on the road is the main concern - more than being able to launch hard from a dead stop.


Additional chassis braces - I am planning to get new MIG welding equipment and do a meticulous 4pt roll bar install at the very minimum plus the ESP 3 point front tower brace and the ESP traction bar. Other than that, I believe it may be benefitial to weld-in a rear strut tower brace.

You will never have a FWD STREET (no slicks) car that can beat a motorcycle in the quarter mile. I'm speaking of the GSXR-600s, R6s, CBR600RRs, ZX-6Rs, and above. You can never get enough power to the ground to get you to hang with them in a quarter mile. Now if you are looking for highway roll-ons then you have a good chance hanging with the 600s easy with what you have, except you will need longer gearing because your top speed in the CB7 is what they put down in their quarter mile trap. Whatever you do, good luck.

I understand that it is going to be tough controlling the power from a dead stop. I want to basically squeeze out as much power control as possible on the street from the CB chassis. IF all I can do is hang with bikes from a roll - then that will still be fun to do in an old Accord.

[Smokinspeeds]

You can get a good turbo cam and valves/springs from bisi for the f, you might consider calling their shop and talking to them about your goals and seeing what they have.

[rexload]

I will more than likely look into Bisi's parts for all internal engine mods when it comes to that point.

This will be a somewhat slow build.
In the next 3 months I plan to put away some money for this build, equip the work area with all the tools I will need, and find a nice clean CB shell that doesn't have any rust problems.
Then I plan to start working on it this winter and, hopefully, have it on the road next summer. I think that is a reasonable dead-line.
This will be unlike my previous projects - it is going to be a meticulous and a thought-out build. This is why I want to have a solid plan before I begin to do or buy anything.
I don't want to cut any corners but also do not want to buy anything "baller" or unnecessary. I want it to be all-business.
My budget is roughly:
shell - as cheap as possible
chassis modifications, suspension, brakes, and tires - 4,500
drivetrain and tuning - 8,000
this is doing most of the work myself.

[mozzandherb]

So you want to build a street car to race on the street? A closed street? Anyway, even from a roll you're not going to get any traction with street tires...believe me I've done it many times and I'm only making 375whp...I have a great set-up for the track and I hook up good with my slicks on, but on the street it's useless.

You'll want some good motor mounts, the proper clutch, I dont have OEM axles, I've heard they can hold up, but I use CV-Tech axles which are thicker. You can check my members ride thread and get some idea from it. I haven't taken the fully built motor to the track yet, but when I was boosting the stock h22 at 8psi I was making 248whp and pulled a 1.78 60ft time at 13.3 @101mph...with the new motor I'm sure I can hit the high 11's, but I need a twin disk clutch. And just to let you know...it's NOT a comfortable ride..lol..and gas is hella expensive if you're tuned with 94 octane fuel and you burn through it really quick.

[Sordz]

If you want to stay as cheap as possible, stick to the F22A. You can make the power you want with a turbo F22A. H22A will just introduce more expense (even if it's just due to the additional head components)

He won't need any head components for a h22 to reach his goal, even a stock intake manifold will work. Stock h22 head with a 8k redline and idles and runs like a stock h22 when not in boost, seems good to me

[PirateMcFred]

I don't want to undermine your morale too much but there's no such thing as a cost-effective Accord capable of out-accelerating a .6l bike. I can get on craigslist and buy a '99 R6 for $2000 and it'll do high 10's. How are you going to be cost-effective against that?

Lots of money have been put into Preludes (similar to Accords) e.g. md23VTEC and OaksRacing and despite 650-790 whp they only managed to get down to 10.6 in the 1/4. They've got totally gutted, dedicated drag cars too.

Might want to reconsider how your buget's spent.

2¢
-P

[Sordz]

I don't want to undermine your morale too much but there's no such thing as a cost-effective Accord capable of out-accelerating a .6l bike. I can get on craigslist and buy a '99 R6 for $2000 and it'll do high 10's. How are you going to be cost-effective against that?

Lots of money have been put into Preludes (similar to Accords) e.g. md23VTEC and OaksRacing and despite 650-790 whp they only managed to get down to 10.6 in the 1/4. They've got totally gutted, dedicated drag cars too.

Might want to reconsider how your buget's spent.

2¢
-P

Who said anything about budget? He said $12,500 just in parts for the car, that should put him well on his way. And md23VTEC is a low 9 second car... So not sure what your talking about.

[rexload]

I don't want to undermine your morale too much but there's no such thing as a cost-effective Accord capable of out-accelerating a .6l bike. I can get on craigslist and buy a '99 R6 for $2000 and it'll do high 10's. How are you going to be cost-effective against that?

Lots of money have been put into Preludes (similar to Accords) e.g. md23VTEC and OaksRacing and despite 650-790 whp they only managed to get down to 10.6 in the 1/4. They've got totally gutted, dedicated drag cars too.

Might want to reconsider how your buget's spent.

2¢
-P

I see what you are saying and it is a very valid point.

I guess what I meant to say is I want to take the most cost-effective route in what I want to accomplish. Meaning, for example, a built F22 may be more cost-effective than a build K20 that makes the same power.

[Joey GT-R]

Thread moved based on content. The general area is dedicated for stickies now..... Please post in the appropriate sub-forum or technical.

[cloudasc]

4. Putting power down on the street.
I understand that I picked the wrong chassis for effectively putting power down, but nevertheless, I see Hondas running very fast times (mostly Civics though). Other than a quality traction bar and drag radial tires; what are some other things to consider for putting the power down to the pavement?

With this build, and street tires, an electronic boost controller, and a properly tuned ecu will be your best friend to keep the beast inline.

Adding water or water/meth injection can allow you to run higher amount of compression/boost on whatever gas grade you choose.

Maybe also consider some laughing gas to help you spool the turbo from a dig.

[mozzandherb]

I just don't really understand the point of the build...the op said that its not for the track, but to race bikes on the street? Maybe I'm just old or something, but it doesn't sound like a good idea

[cloudasc]

There are people who have their own streets on their property... or know someone.

For that amount of power op, you would probably want a full cage, as it will help stiffen the entire chassis... maybe combine that with some seam welding on everything.

[illinois_erik]

sounds more like a deluded pipe dream Your best bet would be to weld in a rear subframe and shoehorn a boosted LSX under the hood.

[PR CB7]

i think you're thinking about it too much, most people that actually MAKE IT did it on their own by doing their own research

making a tread where people get to comment on what you should do, whether its a full racing bikes build or putting amber/clear corners
other peoples opinion will confuse you so much you'll probably fail

to race and beat a bike, you will have to do between 70MPH+ so i can say a f22 trans at 530whp will be the best because of its load on the high gear that mph will be right on the peak of power, but then again a h22 trans at 70 in 4th will also make fly if you make sure you dont spin at those speeds

there are so many possibilities that asking a bunch of people what they think is not ideal
follow what the pros are doing and you'll have success,ask a bunch of people that know how to put sentences together, but take 3 years to bleed a clutch will only confuse you

just my .02
gl

[Apexbender]

It is really bold to say that for a turbo build one does not need to modify the valvetrain. Rexload is talking about a 10 sec car, that ain't no walk in the park! For a FF with 550 to 600 hp, it is hard to keep grip while coming out of the hole. A 10 sec car is hard to maintain as a DD. Deeve... Torque is relative to displacement.