Loose SC idea(s)

[jszuba]

So, I've been toying with the idea of a supercharger for some time.
I do not want a turbo because it isn't a bolt-on in my opinion, so please don't someone post "get a turbo, its cheaper". Well, no, to me it isn't, it is also more complicated, less reliable and frankly, I don't like the idea of adding something that I cannot unbolt later leaving a path of destruction and damage behind - the choice of direction is made....

ANYWAY

This is more of a question of weather what I have thought up makes any sense, and what I might have forgotten.

In principle I'm thinking of using a small centrifugal supercharger (looks like a turbine) mounted before the throttle body to a modified SRI. The power would come from the belts of course, and there'd be a BOV in the SRI... The way I see it is that due to the lack of kits to F22's, this would be turbo-like in set up not requiring modifications to the IM. The original IM would be retained. This way, I would to some extent (I hope) allow the part-closed throttle to slow down the air at idle and avoid surging rpm, only to allow more power when the throttle is open wider for regular to sportier driving.
Other factors to consider:

- all extra equipment bracket mounted to EXISTING holes and openings
- pressure no more than 0.5 bar... maybe 0.3?
- larger injectors? would I need them? I don't want to make too much power... just enough to give modern cars a run for the money
- ECU tuning... I'd really like to avoid that if at all possible. Can I... please?
I have a pt3 and nothing else (even p12) works with my Japanese built CB7 because of a thingy in place of the O2 (IMA: Intake Mixture Adjuster, one of my posts explains all)... unless I don't know something...

Please, let's be constructive even though this may not work at all!

[nope]

- pressure no more than 0.5 bar... maybe 0.3?
- larger injectors? would I need them? I don't want to make too much power... just enough to give modern cars a run for the money
- ECU tuning... I'd really like to avoid that if at all possible. Can I... please?

you should probably go higher than 0.3 bar on a SC setup, remember they have parasitic losses (losses could be as high as 20 or so hp, figure that if 1psi=about 10hp and you have less than 5psi, you'd only be gaining about 25-30hp from your SC and the newer cars are still going to laugh at you).

you can probably get away with either just larger injectors (if the boost is low), or just ecu tuning (but your injectors would probably be maxed out), as both are beneficial in their own right, but if you did both of them together you'd have a smooth running/idling setup. (imo)

[rexload]

Even if you do find a way to mount the supercharger in the place you described.... the biggest problem I see is making brackets/pulleys for the belt...
It would have to be a very CRAZY looking bracket that I can't even picture in my head... maybe I am missing something.... I just don't see how this would work without LOTS of custom fabrication work with extremely precise measurements.

why not try to fit the Jackson Racing supercharger made for H22? it will take a bit of fabrication work but should be possible.

I think a supercharger setup would be really cool but I will have to say that a turbocharger would in fact be MUCH easier.. yes there are more parts with a turbocharger setup... BUT if you do your research, you can get parts that will work together so that you will have VERY little fabrication work.

You will definitely need bigger fuel injectors.. I am not sure how much horsepower the stock injectors can support safely... but my educated guess would be below 200hp.

There is also no way around tunning the ECU. You will have to either find a tuner or buy the equipment and learn yourself.... Well actually there IS a way around that... it is called an FMU... it could work for around 180hp or below BUT it is extremely INEFFICIENT and UNRELIABLE. You basically HAVE to have good engine management if you want your engine to make good power and be able to take some abuse.

And it is hard to say how much pressure you can run safely.. because not many have experience with supercharged Accords. Designing your entire setup to be efficient and having good engine management is much better than just turning up the boost with an inefficient setup.

[jszuba]

Hmm... bigger injectors aren't a problem and I agree that it would be most beneficial. After all more air would logically mean more fuel to keep the AF ratio...
So that's that...

As for power, I won't be needing/wanting anything above 200hp. I'll be more than happy with 30-50hp extra.
It is a good point about parasitic losses... I'll definitely look into higher pressure setups.

Brackets... well... yes, they would be crazy complicated, but being in Poland, there are still places (fewer and fewer) where it can be done well for little money due to cheap labour. Also, enter polish Honda club members and their often amazing ties

Tuning... I was afraid of that. I will look into it but I still kind of want to hear that the stock ECU will manage that much (I don't even believe myself anymore though). I guess I'll have to find an ECU capable of ignoring the lack of an O2 sensor and O2 heater and be chipable at the same time.

PS - someone told me that their CL can be fitted with a compressor kit without tuning... true or false?

[nope]

You will definitely need bigger fuel injectors.. I am not sure how much horsepower the stock injectors can support safely... but my educated guess would be below 200hp.

There is also no way around tunning the ECU. You will have to either find a tuner or buy the equipment and learn yourself.... Well actually there IS a way around that... it is called an FMU... it could work for around 180hp or below BUT it is extremely INEFFICIENT and UNRELIABLE. You basically HAVE to have good engine management if you want your engine to make good power and be able to take some abuse.

And it is hard to say how much pressure you can run safely.. because not many have experience with supercharged Accords. Designing your entire setup to be efficient and having good engine management is much better than just turning up the boost with an inefficient setup.

first off i'm not trying to hate or anything, i just wanna say
1) if the stock injectors could do 200hp then you're set, cause it'd be hard to get that much. very doubtful tho.
2) although no one here is going to recommend it, and idk if there is some weird honda thing that would make this not work, but i don't see why he absolutely HAS to tune because personally i've seen an OBD1 car running 5psi with absolutely no ecu mods (not an accord, but still it's the same idea) you could convert to obd1 and then size your new injectors just right (takes research) and totally get away with never even telling the computer about the boost (it's been done before and no, the engine never blew)
3) boost is boost, you can throw just as much supercharged boost at an engine as you can with a turbo, but you're not going to get as big of a power return because of the losses. 6-8psi would be fine, it also might have to idle high tho.

i think it would be awesome to see more supercharged accords. i wish you the best of luck jszuba, tho i think you should use the biggest SC you can get your hands on, it'll move more air and so just in case you ever feel the need you can still have room to turn up the boost

edit: would you run an intercooler?

[jDmacCordh22a]

first off i'm not trying to hate or anything, i just wanna say
1) if the stock injectors could do 200hp then you're set, cause it'd be hard to get that much. very doubtful tho.
2) although no one here is going to recommend it, and idk if there is some weird honda thing that would make this not work, but i don't see why he absolutely HAS to tune because personally i've seen an OBD1 car running 5psi with absolutely no ecu mods (not an accord, but still it's the same idea) you could convert to obd1 and then size your new injectors just right (takes research) and totally get away with never even telling the computer about the boost (it's been done before and no, the engine never blew)
3) boost is boost, you can throw just as much supercharged boost at an engine as you can with a turbo, but you're not going to get as big of a power return because of the losses. 6-8psi would be fine, it also might have to idle high tho.

i think it would be awesome to see more supercharged accords. i wish you the best of luck jszuba, tho i think you should use the biggest SC you can get your hands on, it'll move more air and so just in case you ever feel the need you can still have room to turn up the boost

edit: would you run an intercooler?

Well for one thing, remember if you run sc on a stock ecu w/ an fmu, you need and map sensor check valve also. Also, no boost is not boost, two superchargers of different size will not flow the same cfm @ the same psi, nor will the air coming out of the chargers be the same temp, therefore you need to accommodate for YOUR set up appropriately. Do yourself a favor and get a chipped ecu, injectors, and tune the car.

[jszuba]

Yeah, an intercooler is an necessary option I forgot to write down even though it is in my head. I can imagine the temperature of compressed air isn't exactly going to be low, and I am far from ruining my motor from the inside like that...

[dbsharp]

If you are afraid of having to get the ecu tuned, then do not even attempt this project. just swap in a h22 and be happy with it. Getting a ecu tuned is not a big deal, just find a tuner worth a shit.

If you don't wanna just swap a motor, and all you want is 200 hp, then get a dsm 14b turbo setup. There is no fucking way that a supercharger setup is going to be cheaper than that.

[rexload]

first off i'm not trying to hate or anything, i just wanna say
1) if the stock injectors could do 200hp then you're set, cause it'd be hard to get that much. very doubtful tho.
2) although no one here is going to recommend it, and idk if there is some weird honda thing that would make this not work, but i don't see why he absolutely HAS to tune because personally i've seen an OBD1 car running 5psi with absolutely no ecu mods (not an accord, but still it's the same idea) you could convert to obd1 and then size your new injectors just right (takes research) and totally get away with never even telling the computer about the boost (it's been done before and no, the engine never blew)
3) boost is boost, you can throw just as much supercharged boost at an engine as you can with a turbo, but you're not going to get as big of a power return because of the losses. 6-8psi would be fine, it also might have to idle high tho.

i think it would be awesome to see more supercharged accords. i wish you the best of luck jszuba, tho i think you should use the biggest SC you can get your hands on, it'll move more air and so just in case you ever feel the need you can still have room to turn up the boost

edit: would you run an intercooler?

-I said stock injectors are probably good for UNDER 200hp. I was almost maxing out the stock injectors before I even put a turbo on my F22, it was just a cam and bolt-ons.
-WHY would it be hard to get 200hp out of an F22??? 200hp is roughly 175whp. People have done ~170whp with just headwork and a chipped ECU and no forced induction... On my setup I am finishing right now, 175whp will be at ROUGHLY 3psi and it's just a $700 turbo setup.
-Yes, I agree, it's possible to just put bigger injectors on and get away with that... problem is that it's not going to make anywhere near the power it should be making and it will probably throw a check engine light because the ECU will not be able to compensate enough under partial throttle and at that point you will be getting 10-15mpg just driving around normally.... when a tuned Honda engine gets 30-45mpg even if it is making 500hp.

So in my opinion tuning IS a must. Plus tuning equipment is dirt cheap now.

[rexload]

Hmm... bigger injectors aren't a problem and I agree that it would be most beneficial. After all more air would logically mean more fuel to keep the AF ratio...
So that's that...

As for power, I won't be needing/wanting anything above 200hp. I'll be more than happy with 30-50hp extra.
It is a good point about parasitic losses... I'll definitely look into higher pressure setups.

Brackets... well... yes, they would be crazy complicated, but being in Poland, there are still places (fewer and fewer) where it can be done well for little money due to cheap labour. Also, enter polish Honda club members and their often amazing ties

Tuning... I was afraid of that. I will look into it but I still kind of want to hear that the stock ECU will manage that much (I don't even believe myself anymore though). I guess I'll have to find an ECU capable of ignoring the lack of an O2 sensor and O2 heater and be chipable at the same time.

PS - someone told me that their CL can be fitted with a compressor kit without tuning... true or false?

If you will be happy with 30-50 more horsepower.... You definitely don't need a supercharger. H22 swap is roughly $1000-1500 and 60-70 horsepower more than a stock F22. Plus the H22 will be completely stock so there will be room for improvement

[jDmacCordh22a]

^^^^Good thinking!

[twokexlv6coupe]

some guy on PP custom rigged a (centrifugal) SC from a stock MR2 on his H23...
lemme see if i can go find his thread.

[PR CB7]

Like he said, the OP doesnt need any off-topic ideas, i've always liked crazy ideas like this (just for the fuck of it ideas)
anyways, here's some food for thought:

ebay turbo, remove the "hotside" housing remove impeller, weld, the proper size pulley

extract a good oil feed from the block, weld a return fitting on the oilpan(like turboed)

get a alternator relocation bracket

and fabricate a bracket for the SC, using the holes for the old alternator bracket and the PS bracket

make the pullley align with the with the ALT

make some pipes

hook everything up

the only thing that will give you a problem with this setup is the fact that to control the psi the charger will produce, you'll have to mismatch the pulleys, because you dont know on an idea like this the effect of what a regular pulley will do

[twokexlv6coupe]

here we go: (lemme know if you gotta be a member to see it)

http://preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303983

pics!!
http://preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303997

[SPLCB7]

you can do it im working on something like that i just havent found an chep sc to use but i have an idea on how to get it working i think an good tune would be bets though its worth it