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??? W/A or A/A ???

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    #1

    ??? W/A or A/A ???

    For those that don't know what I'm referring too, its Water to Air intercooling VS Air to Air intercooling. A long time argument between auto mechanics, tuners, and designers. I to have reached this point. With my secret weapon in the works here, I've been cornered into a tight squeeze yet again.
    Plainly put I dont want a big I/C sticking out the front of my choice of 90-93 bumper, and personally I think it looks fairly ugly. I've seen 2 Mazda speeds here in town with W/A cooling and they've had no problems, (and yes, they're dailies). Many people however say that A/A is still better. I ask this after a bit of research though...If that were so, why would some of the greatest super cars like the GT500 and the Veyron use these systems?

    COMMENCE!
    Confucius say...when god gives you gators...make Gatorade
    Tags: None
    #2
    Nobody? Or am I posting this in the wrong section?
    Confucius say...when god gives you gators...make Gatorade

    Comment

      #3
      27 views and not a single response? I guess no one wants to put in their 5 cents
      Confucius say...when god gives you gators...make Gatorade

      Comment

        #4
        yes air to water is better and the reason the say air to air is because you get one rock or you hit something or someone hits you with that w/a in your bumper and you crack it or get a pinhole you will be leaking pressurized water into you motor an will probly hydro lock it so the people who say a/a is better they are thinking long run an some of them (not all im not implying anything) dont want to take there bumper off to change an intercooler so in all sences it deppends on what you really want to payatention to


        lol personaly i like a/a not because im lazy but i dont want to hydrolock my motor

        "accidents in the back seats cause kids"
        but who says that i
        have back seats in my sedan

        THE ALASKA EXPERIMENT

        Comment

          #5
          a/a is better because it can achieve lower temps than w/a can.
          wat?

          Comment

            #6
            x2 yes because on a hot day the water will naturally rise in temp an if its exposed to the sun will rise even more

            "accidents in the back seats cause kids"
            but who says that i
            have back seats in my sedan

            THE ALASKA EXPERIMENT

            Comment

              #7
              My friend has a boosted s2000 with no intercooler...... his turbo is water and oil cooled. He has a reseivor for the antifreeze part and a oil cooler for the oil part. its extremely nice and you wouldn't be able to tell it was boosted.

              Comment

                #8
                http://www.b20vtec.com/forums/member...13s-s2000.html pics 12 and 13 show the water lines to the turbo. he now has carbon fiber doors sexy ass car

                http://www.b20vtec.com/forums/member...ml#post2075921 these pics show the " mini radiators"

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by drockab View Post
                  My friend has a boosted s2000 with no intercooler...... his turbo is water and oil cooled. He has a reseivor for the antifreeze part and a oil cooler for the oil part. its extremely nice and you wouldn't be able to tell it was boosted.
                  still has a water to air ic bud



                  GOT BOOST???



                  massive part out on accord almost everything is going

                  http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=125294

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Now thats what I'm talking about, PERFECT example. Pure sleeper. and AK-49-CB7 and C91BLX7...I'm sorry to say, you're both wrong. If a heat exchanger is used, the temp will be lower then even A/A. I've been heavily researching this now, and after doing a lot of number crunching the temperature drop with a proper sized heat exchanger is greater then that capable of A/A. Think of it as air conditioning at that point. I'm definately looking to do this now, its also the same price as running A/A, without the mess of cutting the crap outta everything.
                    Last edited by TristansCB7; 04-01-2009, 12:11 PM.
                    Confucius say...when god gives you gators...make Gatorade

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by C91BLX7 View Post
                      a/a is better because it can achieve lower temps than w/a can.
                      Where the hell are you getting your information???

                      I've put together quite a few W/A intercooler setups, and with an adequate sized resevoir (5 gallon), front mounted heat exchanger, and a low pressure hi-volume water pump, you can see temperatures very close to ambient, and below ambient with ice.

                      NO A/A FMIC will EVER be able to cool as well as an A/W setup.

                      I know that people say that the water will become heat-soaked after awhile, but unless you're making 5 minute ballsout freeway runs in 120 degree heat, it's unlikely.

                      Do you understand how much energy it takes to heat 5 gallons of water? With the water passing through a front mounted heat exhanger (I've seen people use trans coolers) it is cooled and then stored in the resevoir before making another pass through the core, assuming you're not running WOT at full boost for more than 30 seconds at a time, the water will stay very close to ambient temp.

                      I work with Factor-X Engineering on a regular basis, and they use only A/W setups on their NSX turbo kits. They also run A/W on their time attack FX750 NSX.

                      Air to Water FTW!

                      Check out Frozenboost.com

                      He has everything needed for A/W, I'm going to run the Bosch pump, and the large aluminum heat exchanger, the exchanger is actually an upgrade for the SVT Mustang and Lightning A/W system, the pump is also OEM Ford.

                      -Kyle
                      Last edited by F22Turbo702; 04-01-2009, 02:57 PM.
                      SOHC Non-VTEC F-series for life

                      "It is the fools prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak."
                      -Morpheus (The Sandman)

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Hey I'm grabbing all my gear for my (SECRET ENGINE HERE) turbo build off Frozen Boost! Using the 600hp kit with a Bosch pump !
                        Confucius say...when god gives you gators...make Gatorade

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by TristansCB7 View Post
                          Hey I'm grabbing all my gear for my (SECRET ENGINE HERE) turbo build off Frozen Boost! Using the 600hp kit with a Bosch pump !
                          Sounds good, definetely go with the Bosch pump. If you do get the 600hp kit, I would recommend getting the Type 118 heat exhanger, the default type 100 is quite large and will probably cause some cooling issues as it will block airflow to the radiator; I ran into this problem on a WRX with the Type 100 heat exchanger.

                          Good luck with the setup! Please post some pics of the install.

                          -Kyle
                          SOHC Non-VTEC F-series for life

                          "It is the fools prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak."
                          -Morpheus (The Sandman)

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by F22Turbo702 View Post
                            NO A/A FMIC will EVER be able to cool as well as an A/W setup.
                            a/a ic's are not some new tech, they are proven...you can't really bash them like this. If a/w is so much better then why aren't they used by more tuners? It's more than just a/a are more popular...they are more popular due to functionality...not just ease of use.

                            Take a breather and share your knowledge, this is something I need to learn more about, you seem to have some exp. so share the knowledge!


                            I know that people say that the water will become heat-soaked after awhile, but unless you're making 5 minute ballsout freeway runs in 120 degree heat, it's unlikely.
                            5 min isn't long...texas, arizona...other places...get hotter than 120...hell when I worked in austin...IN THE SHOP...huge tall shop with MASSIVE fans blowing, my bay got up to 115...that's damn hot.

                            I'm sure with an adequate res. though, longer runs could be made and the heat wouldn't be an issue.

                            Do you understand how much energy it takes to heat 5 gallons of water?
                            the same amount it takes to cool it once it heats up...air is easier to cool...and yes heat of course. But once you heat up water...hella hard to cool it. Again, it would take a pretty good while to heat that water up I agree

                            but are you talking about cooling the turbo or the air...yeah yeah...I don't know what I'm talking about...which is why I ask

                            I see both have pros and cons. Would like to see more scientifically based arguments with PROOF as to the number/types of pros and cons of each.
                            Last edited by bcjammerx; 04-02-2009, 11:32 AM.
                            ____

                            Comment

                              #15
                              It is true A/A is more popular, but that's because it's easier for the average joe to install and run without getting too technically involved. Plus it looks cool

                              But when it comes down to functionality and efficiency, A/W is unbeatable. Water transfers heat much better than air does.

                              And 5 min. is a very long time to be WOT at full boost. Think about it, 0-100 takes 15-30 seconds for a not so powerful car...now...how fast do you think you would be going if you kept you foot in it for another 4mins...It's nearly impossible be in boost for longer than 30sec. even on an open highway.

                              Also, the water is constantly being cooled, not just when you're in boost. The air temps are much cooler when cruising and at part thorttle, it's not until the turbo is producing pressure that the air charge becomes heated. So even in a daily driver the water will remain cool for a long period of time because you spend more time out of boost than in boost.

                              A/W Pros-
                              Shorter piping distance= Better throttle response/less lag
                              Less pressure drop through the core less than 0.5psi
                              Better heat transfer= Cooler/denser air
                              More compact packaging
                              Stealthy/Sleeper look for DD cars

                              A/W Cons- None that I can think of.

                              I have a hard time explaining things to people...but if you want to learn about A/W intercooling, I would suggest reading Maximum Boost by Corky Bell and maybe reading up on basic thermodynamics theory. Also, check out Frozen Boost's A2W FAQ- http://www.frozenboost.com/stpg.php?...d=water_to_air

                              I hope this helped.

                              -Kyle
                              SOHC Non-VTEC F-series for life

                              "It is the fools prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak."
                              -Morpheus (The Sandman)

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