Hondata tuning for racing

[The G-Man]

First off, not sure how much input I am going to get here because it seems not many people around here use Hondata for their ECU tuning.

And don't start bashing me for using it when Crome does the same thing, which it might as far as fuel maps are concerned but what Hondata does have which makes it super fucking good to use is:
-No chips or chip burners to deal with. USB connection is the only option
-Onboard and real time datalogging standard

No chips makes it really easy to modify a tune, or change launch control settings for track days.

All that being said, I want to use my ECU to my advantage when I do compete in Autocross events.

Car stats; static:
H23A VTEC Blue top 167hp DynoDynamics
T2T4 tranny w/LSD
Competition Clutch Stage 3 Clutch
16''x7'' Enkei RPF-1
205/50/16 Dunlop Direzza Star Spec tires

Saturday I had it out and was only really focused on the launch control side of things, got it dialed in at 3700 RPM launch with a bit of feathering on the clutch provided a pretty good launch with almost no wheel-spin at 32psi in the front tires.

Once I pulled the datalog files and looked at them the top speed for the day was 62 mph, and the RPM ranging from about 3000-7300 rpm over the course. I noticed the engine dropping out of VTEC a lot, and then having to cross back over. With my current tune, VTEC is engaged at 4500 RPM. Realistically I think it would be best to get it on a dyno and have it tuned for VTEC to engage around 3000-3500 RPM just to decrease the lag time for the secondary lobes to engage.

In the type of racing I do this can be advantageous because the run times are typically around 1 minute or so and can have several very tight, slow areas. Obviously I would not drive around every day on this type of map, just go to the track, load the racing map, race, load the street map, and go home.

Another thing I am seriously looking into is getting a wideband to also hook up to the ECU to provide actual data with real meaning to see the AFR because currently I run with no O2 at all.

Tuners of the world, chime in and lets bounce some stuff around.

[PR CB7]

get a better intake setup, euro r manifold and a 68mm tb and some cam gears
skunk2 is more of a high end manifold, euro r will give you more TQ
i've seen setups like these hitting 220whp with shittier trannies and replica headers

leave vtec past 4k, 3-3.5k will be to sluggish (you can always try it)
the only way you'll get better times at the track is lightening everything, reduce parasitic drag, and more and more tuning

you prob removed the iabs too? this is why you have a shitty mid-range, again better im setup will help you a lot

[deevergote]

I don't have any tuning experience to offer, but I know a thing or two about VTEC. Lowering your crossover that drastically will produce one hell of a dead zone in your powerband. Your best bet would be to tune it for the smoothest power curve possible, so that there is no noticeable transition between lobes.
The problem with the VTEC design as it is on the H series engines is that it's only a 2 lobe design. The low-RPM lobes reach a point where they're no longer making power, and then the high-RPM lobes pick up where they left off. The "kick" that everyone loves to feel is the result of a high crossover, where the low-RPM lobes are already running out of steam, and the high-RPM lobes instantly allow for more power as soon as the crossover occurs.
If you lower the crossover too far, you'll experience the opposite. Instead of jumping out of a dead zone back into the powerband, you'll be jumping out of the powerband and into a dead zone, requiring you to rev for another 1000RPM before you get into the RPM range where the high-RPM lobes are making power.

You want to cross over where the low-RPM lobes are still making power, and the high-RPM lobes will also make power. There may be a slight dip, but that's what you should aim for.



Also, I agree with Oscar on the IABs. Either use a single-stage IM like the Euro-R, or (assuming he's correct), reinstall the IABs. For autocross, you're not getting to high speeds... so you want to tune for the broadest powerband possible, rather than overall power production.

[Mayhem Tripp Robinson]

are you s300. if so how do you like it im looking to get it as well.

[The G-Man]

get a better intake setup, euro r manifold and a 68mm tb and some cam gears
skunk2 is more of a high end manifold, euro r will give you more TQ
i've seen setups like these hitting 220whp with shittier trannies and replica headers

leave vtec past 4k, 3-3.5k will be to sluggish (you can always try it)
the only way you'll get better times at the track is lightening everything, reduce parasitic drag, and more and more tuning

you prob removed the iabs too? this is why you have a shitty mid-range, again better im setup will help you a lot

IABs are hooked up to Vac right now. I am thinking a EuroR is the way to go

I don't have any tuning experience to offer, but I know a thing or two about VTEC. Lowering your crossover that drastically will produce one hell of a dead zone in your powerband. Your best bet would be to tune it for the smoothest power curve possible, so that there is no noticeable transition between lobes.
The problem with the VTEC design as it is on the H series engines is that it's only a 2 lobe design. The low-RPM lobes reach a point where they're no longer making power, and then the high-RPM lobes pick up where they left off. The "kick" that everyone loves to feel is the result of a high crossover, where the low-RPM lobes are already running out of steam, and the high-RPM lobes instantly allow for more power as soon as the crossover occurs.
If you lower the crossover too far, you'll experience the opposite. Instead of jumping out of a dead zone back into the powerband, you'll be jumping out of the powerband and into a dead zone, requiring you to rev for another 1000RPM before you get into the RPM range where the high-RPM lobes are making power.

You want to cross over where the low-RPM lobes are still making power, and the high-RPM lobes will also make power. There may be a slight dip, but that's what you should aim for.



Also, I agree with Oscar on the IABs. Either use a single-stage IM like the Euro-R, or (assuming he's correct), reinstall the IABs. For autocross, you're not getting to high speeds... so you want to tune for the broadest powerband possible, rather than overall power production.

Right now, VTEC crossover is tuned to be smooth, and it is smooth compared to stock Preludes and S2000 I have driven

[deevergote]

The smooth crossover is the best you'll do, then. If you set it to be sooner, the power loss at the crossover will feel like you're trying to accelerate in 3rd gear from 1000RPM.

The IAB hooked to vacuum alone is holding you back, I'm quite sure. Either wire it correctly, and set your ECU to trigger it, or use a manifold that doesn't use the IAB system.
Honestly, though... for your purposes, a properly functioning IAB system is a good idea. Like VTEC, it provides a wider powerband.

[The G-Man]

are you s300. if so how do you like it im looking to get it as well.

Yeah, S300. Works great

The smooth crossover is the best you'll do, then. If you set it to be sooner, the power loss at the crossover will feel like you're trying to accelerate in 3rd gear from 1000RPM.

The IAB hooked to vacuum alone is holding you back, I'm quite sure. Either wire it correctly, and set your ECU to trigger it, or use a manifold that doesn't use the IAB system.
Honestly, though... for your purposes, a properly functioning IAB system is a good idea. Like VTEC, it provides a wider powerband.

I agree. I think I have one of those black boxes laying around somewhere...

[Karl]

I have been using neptune/crome for about five years, they have been good but now I wish I had hondata as there are more tuners willing to work with it and as you said the ease of adjustment.

ps I think you need a gsr ecu to have tuning ability and iab control

[deevergote]

Is your ECU set up to operate IABs?

[The G-Man]

Hondata has many options to control IABs, just barely looking at it, there appears to be 6 pin outs to engage it.

Hell, with Hondata you don't even need a VTEC enabled base ECU to run VTEC, just use one of the other pins with a relay.

[PR CB7]

even if u made the iabs work correctly, it wont satisfy you or your needs
euro r+68mm will be your best option

also that wideband will help you out a lot, im pretty sure you're leand out a little in midrange

how much power you're putting down?
how bout some UD pulleys since you need PS, squeeze everything you can

[deevergote]

I feel that a functional IAB system would provide a broader, lower powerband than the Euro R manifold. A dyno comparison would settle that... and we don't have that, unfortunately... but I think the Euro R manifold might result in less usable power in the lower RPM range... a range that potentially sees a lot of use in a tight auto-x course. Especially with a larger 2.3L engine. If he was using a 2.0L engine, that might make more sense, as he'd probably be keeping it revved up higher throughout the course. The point of the 2.3L is to have more low end.

[PR CB7]

on a 213whp h22

h22 stock IM at 3k tq= 133ftlb
h22 euro r IM at 3k tq=135ftlb

at 4k
stock-137ftlb
euro-145ftlb

at 4.5
145ftlb
158ftlb

at 5
155ftlb
160ftlb

at 5.5
156ftlb
170ftlb

6
155ftlb
168ftlb

6.5
150ftlb
155ftlb

7
150ftlb
150ftlb

both intakes had a 68mm tb, as you can see the euro r having a smaller plenum and its single runner design helps low-end tq, but its small plenum kills it on top end
something a skunk2 would take care of, but skunk2's design is more for high end power, and high end tq, you can see up to 20ftlb of on vtec engagement, but shitty numbers on low end

[deevergote]

Well there ya go... that's the info necessary to make such a determination! I would assume that the numbers would be even better with the h23a.

I know it's unrelated to this particular application, but I recall 2point6's experience with the EuroR and Skunk2 was that the EuroR performed better in his drag car as well...

[The G-Man]

Well there ya go... that's the info necessary to make such a determination! I would assume that the numbers would be even better with the h23a.

I know it's unrelated to this particular application, but I recall 2point6's experience with the EuroR and Skunk2 was that the EuroR performed better in his drag car as well...

Yeah, I looked up and found similar info earlier. I am super surprised that the EuroR makes so much damn power over the entire band. I am shocked that all people with H22 are not dying to put these bad boys on.

And one of the keys to driving something small and light on course is keeping the revs up, so I try to do that as much I can as it is.