F22/H22 Frank v H23VTEC Frank for boosting...

[GrayCar]

The F22 bore is 85mm, the H23 bore is 87mm, the H22 head is 87mm...

H22 sleeves suck for boost, the F22 will survive better. What about the H23 sleeves? Are they same as the F material wise?

H22 bottom end is strong enough for some mild boost. Will the H22 bottom end fit in the H23 block? I know the stroke is about 4mm shorter... what about crank journals, etc?

The H22 crank & rods will lower compressions even further in the H23 block, but pistons will be needed anyway, so if compression is too low, I can bring it back with pistons...

I want to boost up to the point where I won't need to resleeve the block. Aftermarket pistons and/or rods won't break the bank. Pistons, rods and new sleeves will.

The thing that bothers me about the F22 block is the bore difference, I'd rather match those up.

[92ex]

h23 has same sleeves as h22. h22 head flows very nicely, so it would go well with the f22, since it has a nice bottom end. But the h23 block with h22 head will give you great torque but limits boost due to the bottom end. From what I'm learning, I think you want the shorter stroking crank with the longer rods for boost. Wikked should really tell you about this, since he is the master hybridizer. but that info is what I think.

[GrayCar]

Ya, but nobody answers their PM's regarding this...

The H22 and H23 block are the same, only the bottoms are different.

I have to do some figuring on this....

[gloryaccordy]

Get an F22 block w/ F22 pistons and rods, and an H22 crank under an H22 head and boost that. Crazy low compression, higher revvability, F22 strength, reliability, and replacability. There's a thread that shows that everything is interchangeable between all F's and H's besides the 5th gen H22s and the F23s, I forget what it was called...but Rick Solis started it.

[green5thgen]

From what I'm learning, I think you want the shorter stroking crank with the longer rods for boost. [/QUOTE]
Unfortunately that is backwards. The Toyota Supra's from 93 to 97 have EXTREMELY short rods with a longer crank stroke and this is why a stock Supra block will hold over 25 pounds as is. This is the reason the 2JZ motor is so popular in the NDRA. It is capable of well over 1300hp.

[DrLove'sKuDang]

Ya, but nobody answers their PM's regarding this...

The H22 and H23 block are the same, only the bottoms are different.

I have to do some figuring on this....

sorry for the offtopic question... but i just wanted to double check what you said... the h22 and h23 blocks are the exact same except for the crank and rods?

[GrayCar]

Ya, that's what I'm finding out as a I go along. Same block. Could be wrong, but that's what it seems. Same FRM sleeves though, that's for sure. Some issues with the oil squirters, the H22 has them and the H23 doesn't. Some folks say you have to machine them in, some folks say the pop right in no problem, some folks say you don't need the squirters, some folks say you do... The opinion -v- actual experience thing...


I really do not want to resleeve this block. That a budget buster. For a piston upgrade, it looks like the best you can do without resleeving is the Type-S pistons from Honda. They're not as strong as the forged jobbies, but they're better than stock.

But... the Type-S pistons will raise compression, which is the wrong direction to go if I plan to boost. So... I will have to lower compression if I go with these pistons. A shorter rod? Probably. Stronger rods aren't terribly expensive to begin with and wouldn't be a bad idea.

I'm still confused on the H23 bottom end lowering compression on the H22 block though... If the H23 has a longer stroke than the H22...

Figured it out... Though the H23 crank has longer stroke, it has a shorter rod and a shorter piston. Bingo, the H22 with the H23 pistons, rod, and crank will have a smaller C/R.

The difference in the oil passages between the H23 head and the H23 block would say that the H22 and H23 blocks are not the same. But, the bore is the same, the deck height is the same... they both make the same cylinder volume so it doesn't matter. It's the H23 internals you want to reduce compression.

I don't want the H23 bottom end though, doesn't seem to be as stout as the H22. Looks like the Type-S pistons with some shorter rods will do the trick without having to resleeve, just need to figure out how short to go... back to the calculator!

[GrayCar]

Ya, I'm off the Frank idea anyway. The blocks are virtually identical (from what I can gather) and I'd also rather keep the squirters.

The real trick or benefit to the swap is the lower compression from the H23 internals, and if that's all I'm after I can accomplish that in a more reliable way.

I'm still reading up on the shorter rod idea, apparently rod length/stroke ratio will affect your power band. More or less peaky in one way or another. I dunno, still reading up about it.

The idea of the Type-S piston is to buy myself some margin of error as opposed to the stock pistons without having to go to the expense of resleeving.

[92ex]

all depends what you want. you want a low end beast, 9.5 compression and small turbo, if you want something more top end and better highway power or whatever, 8.5-9:1 compression with a big compressor with upped boost

[GrayCar]

The Type-S pistons will be a must, I'd feel much better with that safety margin in there. I have seen elsewhere the 9.5:1 is what I would want, so I was shooting for that.

Since the Type-S are taller, I don't know how much headgasket I'd need to get it down. If I can avoid the new rods, great, less expense and I won't screw up the internal geometry of the motor. I don't plan on boosting this motor past the capacity of the stock internals anyway, though the new rods would also give me more fudge factor...

I have to sit down and do the math on this.

Small turbo, big turbo... crap, I haven't even started thinking about that...

[H23Accord]

...the frank is the least reliable hybrid motor BY FAR........ls/vtec was perfected much sooner......

Just because the mini-me swap was "perfected much sooner" doesn't mean the Frank can't be "perfected" as well. Of course I am using "perfected" loosely because it is all relative.

GrayCar...good luck with your adventures in boosting!

[GrayCar]

Just because the mini-me swap was "perfected much sooner" doesn't mean the Frank can't be "perfected" as well. Of course I am using "perfected" loosely because it is all relative.

GrayCar...good luck with your adventures in boosting!

Thanks!

[GrayCar]

Shorter rods are out. Outside of finding them, the rod/stroke ratio now is almost 1.6, shorter rods will bring it down, which is the wrong way to go.

I saw an ad for some Mahle FRM friendly pistons, Gold series or something, they have some gold material on the skirts, hence Gold...

However, I cannot find any info for these magic pistons on the Mahle website.

Wiseco supposedly had some also but no longer.

[oneoffaccord]

Ya, but nobody answers their PM's regarding this...

The H22 and H23 block are the same, only the bottoms are different.

I have to do some figuring on this....

all h and f series blocks are the same (cast wise) internals are different

[GrayCar]

Ya, I see that now, thanks.

Piston-wise... over on HT there are two stories with the forged pistons I found. One guy has had his forged pistons on a boosted H22 with stock internals for over 20,000 miles. So far so good.

Another guy had his for 5,000 and took his block apart. Found the cylinder walls had some scoring. It may have been his engine builder though. Even with the coated skirts, if there's too much play in the cylinder, the skirts will score up the works.

So far the list of suppliers for H22 pistons on FRM sleeves are Wiseco, Mahle, Jun and CP. The Wiseco's I haven't found yet, the Mahle's I've only seen in one place and I just heard about the Jun and CP. Apparently the Jun pistons are made by Cosworth for Jun.

The search for lower compression pistons continues...