Standalone vs. Piggyback vs. Chipped ECU -- Pros and Cons

[deevergote]

Ok, I figured I would ask on this topic and see what people have to see. I know there are the DIY advocates here (some that have accomplished a lot, like MRX) that say a chipped ECU and Uberdata can do anything. There are others that swear by piggyback units. Finally, there are those that say NOTHING compares to a full standalone.

So, I figured I would try to tie down the argument here and see what we can come up with! Feel free to include your intentions in using the system you favor. If you have a mild street car, you probably won't have the same needs as someone with a full race car!


Personally, I don't think I have a need for a full standalone. The good units can go for $2000 or more. I'm a little torn between a piggyback system and the DIY method. I currently have a P28 (being chipped this weekend ) so the DIY IS my choice right now. I'm just curious as to what makes the other two so much better. It seems to me that, although the chip burning can be cumbersome, the chipped ECU method can accomplish pretty much everything that the more expensive systems can.

[MRX]

in order from the best
1. Standalone (AEM, Motec, etc.)
2. Programmable ecu or chipped ecu (Hondata, Uberdata, Crome, Ghettodyne, Turboedit)
3. Piggybacks (S-AFC, Field controllers, Greddy Emanage)

Standalones will always be the best for an engine but in most cases its not even remotely necessary. Standalones have the option to adjust just about every parameter and monitor every parameter of an engine. From rpm, intake air temps, infinitely adjustable fuel and ignition maps, closed loop and open loop rpm switches, controlling nitrous, sensing dangerous conditions to the engine and compensating for them, and more. The capability of controlling turbo and nitrous at the same time, limiting boost to certain speeds, immediate changes to the system by the user, and traction control. Standalones almost seem to "learn" the application and adjust to keep a healthy engine. But as stated previously the units are usually VERY high priced and aren't needed for setups that aren't in the 19+ psi range, under 12:1 compression, doesn't have insanely lobey cams, or much internal work. There is nothing a programmable ecu or piggyback can do that a standalone can't do and be better at it. Regardless, the average setup definately doesn't need a unit like this.

Programmable ecu's are somethin i got into as a step above piggyback units. They allow for many adjustments that suit your average build of even over 400whp. You can raise lower your rev limit, add full throttle launch, and full throttle shifting, change ur vtec engagement points, modify the fuel and ignition tables to suit ur needs and run the engine smoothly and safely, compensate for bigger injectors, move rpm values for fine tuning, adjust cold idle, and tell the ecu what to do when it sees positive manifold pressure. The free software programs are always advancing and discovering new things so its best to read up often or you'll miss out. There is even scripts out to control nitrous now, and real time programming does exist so there isn't a need to shut the engine down and spend a minute or 2 burning another chip anymore if u have the proper tool. This engine management usually costs less than even the piggyback units but does require certain tools to make adjustments and knowledge of how an engine works...heaven forbid.

Piggybacks are decent IMO for light, mild setups. The reason i strayed away from them is because you can't accurately do fuel adjustments without adding/subtracting timing. Piggybacks make the ecu "think" its not seeing certain things and modify the input the ecu reads to make it "think" it should be at a certain part of the map. You can adjust about 8-10 points on the map depending on the unit. You can control larger injectors and change vtec engagement points. Its simple and easy to make adjustments. On most units you can even monitor air pressure, karma (whatever that is), rpm, and throttle position.

Lastly, no adjustments should be made without the aid of a wideband or dyno tuning. Simply guessing and making blind adjustments is a great way to find urself making wtb engine threads.

[deevergote]

Wow... I made this thread and never saw it again... till now! Thanks Antoine!

Now, you have a wideband o2, right? Have you ever dyno tuned your own car? (I know I should know this, but I don't...) Tuning is clearly best on a dyno, and safest... but you are proof that with some knowledge (well, a lot of knowledge) you can adjust things to a point off a dyno. Is this where the wideband comes in?

[H23Accord]

I would have to agree with everything antoine said above. I considered stand alone until Antoine showed me that it can be tuned on a financially cheaper scale. Antoine did a fantastic job tuning my car pre-dyno using his wideband o2 and uberdata. This makes it not neccessarily a necessity to tune on a dyno, but of course for optimal performance it would be wise to. Antoine actually "street tuned" my car and just from the street tuning alone my mileage per tank and also my power increased more than i was expecting. Robert (92ex) also assisted in helping me tune to the point that I am at now and maybe he will chime in on this thread as well.

[MRX]

Wow... I made this thread and never saw it again... till now! Thanks Antoine!

Now, you have a wideband o2, right? Have you ever dyno tuned your own car? (I know I should know this, but I don't...) Tuning is clearly best on a dyno, and safest... but you are proof that with some knowledge (well, a lot of knowledge) you can adjust things to a point off a dyno. Is this where the wideband comes in?

yes i have a wideband and have dyno tuned my own car. The wideband is more so to make sure you cylinders are running cool and to prevent detonation. A common reason for detonation is running lean. Running lean makes the engine run hotter. Fuel itself is supposed to ignite in one spot in the cylinder (at the spark plug). Since heat can ignite gasoline if you run lean then the heat thats created can cause your gas to ignite prematurely and sparatically. . The part that makes detonation so dangerous is those two flames colliding with each other. Proper a/f ratios can prevent this but too advanced of timing can cause detonation too. And both fuel and igntion timing coincide with exhaust gas temperatures. Now, you can street tune with a wideband and egt sensor pretty accurately but you won't see/feel little spots of detonation unless your looking at a dyno graph.

Another subject is that all that heat causes pressure and we all know that our ringlands can't handle lots of pressure at all

[MRX]

i was trying to find picture of detonation like i did yesterday but of course i can't find it anymore. It showed two flames in one cylinder and they called that one detonation and another picture just had one flame that had been ignited by the spark plug

[BustedLX]

What you just described MRX is preignition. Detonation is the uncontrolled combustion of the end-gasses. Essentially it's a controlled combustion that at the last milli second goes horribly wrong. The eng gasses all exploding at once cause a sudden pressure riase in the cylinder almost double the regular pressure which can blow out head gaskets, ring lands, etc.

Preignition will in worst cases cause back-fires in the intake track but will not produce dangerously high cylinder pressure like detonation does. This of preignition like autoignition, where the air fuel mixture is ignited by heat rather then by the spark plug.

An EGT gauge will greatly help you tune your ignition timing. The temperature of the exhaust gases will help you determine how much to retard/advance your timing. Just as with tuning AFR with a Wideband... if you try to tune ignition without an EGT then you are tuning blind.

Aftermarket knock detectors can also be a huge help.

There's allot to this engine tuning... even factors such as humidity must be addressed.

[MRX]

yea i generalize it sometimes so i don't confuse ppl. Since there are so many different types of detonation and ways it can happen i usually sum it up into just one word. Especially since i don't have to get very specific.

I've got some homework for anyone who's willing to learn...tell me how running rich causes higher egt's.

[BustedLX]

to much ignition retard.

[MRX]

to much ignition retard.

No not you lol!!! Put your hand down

Too much ignition retard is one way to cause high egt's but more specifically how does running too rich cause high egt's?

[ACCLUDE91]

don't you mean " why does running LEAN cause high EGT readings?"