whats kinda power will i see?

[wed3k]

185.3whp

[mndude07]

186.4

[lordoja]

[toycar]

I love how these guys are flaming the op... Thats great.
To the op;

To get an understanding of the power your going to make, you need somethings first and foremost.

-Size of the bore
-Compression of the pistons
-Length of the stroke
-Length of the rods

with that we should be able to get a pretty good idea how many CC's the motor will displace at 100% volumetric efficiency.

Then, you will need to figure out how much air the head flows*, and how much fuel your going to be giving it. With those numbers, we should be able to find the estimated CFM of your motor.

To find how much the head will flow you need the following;

-Intake port sizes
-Exhaust port sizes
-Intake/exhaust valve sizes-inner stem as well as the actual valve face diameter
-Cam lift/duration

Now, this isnt going to give you an exact amount of HP at the wheels, but you should be able to figure out the CFM and CC's of the motor, which in lamons terms is what "Horsepower" really is.

However, even with all that math-your just going to get a ballpark because nobody really can create 100% VE, its just not possbile. Too many things reduce efficiency, like intake runners, TB's exhaust manifolds ETC..

Words of wisdom from a guy thats been there;

Be carefull kid, the shit you are talking about is serious science. Lots of people have failed trying to do stuff along these lines, that were uneducated on the subject. Theres alot of things to consider just to decide wether or not the combo you want will even rotate. Then, your really going to have to figure out the other variables that the engineers already thought of, like whats the material made of(Pistons VS Cylinder sleeves) and wether or not the metals pair well together and actually difuse heat, or will you be building a heat monster-that will eventually fail.

Also, in all the flaiming going on up there, I didnt read even one person talk about clearances. The clearances will be 10x harder to figure out then any of the other shit I was already talking about. Since you want to frankenstein this motor togther, standard OEM clearances are only a guess for reference, and GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

Thats hard stuff to figure out and definetely not the same for every car/motor but will prove detrimental to your motor if not configured correctly. For what its worth, my opinion only;

car companies only know how much clearance to have from trial and error. There are proven mathematical ways to get close to perfect, but trial and error in my opinion was how they get it 100% correct.

Too little clearence = no lube on the journals, friction builds then turns the bearring
Too much clearance= rod banging around eventually turning a bearring

The idea behind finding the appropriate clearance is that the journal should NEVER come into contact with the crankshaft, it should FLOAT via oil.

The torque specs shouldnt be that different from OEM applications, you'll just need to make sure you use the right OEM guide for the right part, and remember which parts came from where.

Dont use F23 specs on the head, or K series specs on the crank etc.. You follow?

[dbsharp]

There are a few things wrong with your statement.
For instance.

%100 VE has been surpassed on a NA motor, many times.

Most clearances will be very close to stock or stock. There are just a couple more clearances to worry about.

Trying to calculate the CFM, mass flowrate (which is more important than cfm when considering HP), or VE of the motor is far from a walk in the park.

[Straight Success]

Hmmmm!

I detect some Thermodynamics, Material Science, C.A.D., Fluid Mechanics, Heat and Mass Transfer, Dynamic Systems, Algebra, Calculus, and Differential EQ. Don't forget about Excel.

These tools can give you a theoretical ball park answer.

[dbsharp]

The big thing there is fluid dynamics as an engine is essentially a fluid pump.

[toycar]

The big thing there is fluid dynamics as an engine is essentially a fluid pump.

No, its an air pump man.
Im assuming you thought that, due to the term that people regularly throw out,"Fluid dynamics" and how they relate to a car.

Only a novice is familiar with the term, and thinks that an engine is a fluid pump. Fluid dynamics is the Physics behind such studies as aerodynamics and hydrodynamics. Though the title itself is missleading, containing the word FLUID makes you think about LIQUID. However, only a fraction of Fluid Dynamics is related to fluid, and 90% of it is related to aerodynamics and air flow(or gasses, air being a gas).

I would suggest reading up on the subject, prior to spouting out facts about engines being fluid pumps and such. This forum, in this section tends to flame on folks who dont know what they are talking about, and I generally dont approve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics

Fluids dont compress, air does. Air in, air/gases out. Only liquid involved is in the combustion chamber.The fluid is injected, or pumped electronically but the air is pumped via compression in the cylinder. SOOOO, this "Engine" is an air pump.

I dare you to try and compress liquids.


And I was just talking about a general idea, I understand that theres a ton more to it. I kinda hinted on that I thought in my post, but either way Ill just concede you point that theres more to it then I described, and that I described the jyst, for a ballpark not a formula for perfection

And for arguements sakes here, horsepower is a term that relates to the measuring of power, not the actual measurment. Torque is actually the 'Force' and "Horspower" is how its measured, commonly referred to as "Work done over time".

This is a good explanation of that;
http://www.web-cars.com/math/horsepower.html

This is another good write up on the differences of the two, and what their relationship is;

http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/torque.html

About the fluid pump though;
Get it right before you harp on me about the science(Joke)

An example of a fluid pump is like your power steering system or any hydraulic stystem. Hydraulic engines(are still air pumps) but turn pulleys(Like a power steering pump) to move fluid to operate the hydraulics.

Fluid doesnt compress. In the power steering system it uses the lack of ability to compress, to assist your steering rack to turn VIA pressure in the lines and the fluid circulating. If the fluid would compress, the system wouldnt work, and thats why air in your lines causes the hiccupps. Air in line = difference in pressure because air DOES compress under pressure-so it cannot operate your power steering-hence the hiccupp/resistance feeling.


Rookie

(just kidding/flipping shit, if you believe engines are a matter of fluids educate me, Im willing to listen to your theory)

[dbsharp]

I wasn't attacking you, It looks like you took it that way. I am just correcting misinformation. Before you attack me on the terms I use perhaps you should look up the meaning of them.

Ill save you the effort.
taken from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fluid

"a substance, as a liquid or gas, that is capable of flowing and that changes its shape at a steady rate when acted upon by a force tending to change its shape."

Gases are fluids.

Liquids are compressible.
Don't believe me?
Look up the bulk modulus elasticity

[toycar]

Im not going to argue that you were or weren't very bluntley attempting to correct me, on something that I wasnt exactly wrong about..


Anyways, I will concede your point. In some scenarios gases can be liquids, though I do not believe this is one of them the details of the conversation are waaaayyy off topic VS what the op is asking.


Just like GLASS is the hardest liquid. There are examples of each, that can be argued. Just like fluids that can compress(I was referring to fluids that would be found in a vehicle, not every single liquid on the planet).

So you still think its a fluid pump though eh?

Why?

I think the key word your hanging onto thats got me wondering is "fluid", not liquid.


Fluid, in this scenario as I understand is describing the movement of air. Not that the gases is a fluid aka liquid.

When you Google Define:fluid, these are examples of what it says that Im talking about;

•characteristic of a fluid; capable of flowing and easily changing shape
•fluent: smooth and unconstrained in movement; "a long, smooth stride"; "the fluid motion of a cat";



So I feel like the word "fluid" is descriptive in its use in this scenario, and is not used as a Noun.

Am I understanding you better now or???

[dbsharp]

I don't care to argue the point any further. I do agree that this has gone OT.

To the OP
Your question is far too broad. Give more specifics like what cam you want, intake and exhaust setup you want, and the compression ratio of the motor combo your looking at and Ill give you my opinion.

[Reignstarz]

Fluids dont compress, air does. Air in, air/gases out. Only liquid involved is in the combustion chamber.The fluid is injected, or pumped electronically but the air is pumped via compression in the cylinder. SOOOO, this "Engine" is an air pump.

I dare you to try and compress liquids.


A

Just so you know bro fluids can be compressed.

The water at the bottom of the ocean is compressed by the weight of the water above it all the way to the surface, and is more dense than the water at the surface.

I dare you to deny that.

But yeah def air pump.

[lordoja]

why is this still going on? obviously the OP doesn't even care anymore...i still think it was one of those "need for speed" questions. shit my friend thought for the longest that you could just convert any FWD into an RWD or even AWD by just swapping drivetrains without any sort of fabrication cus of forza

[jhondayaaj]

why Is This Still Going On? Obviously The Op Doesn't Even Care Anymore...i Still Think It Was One Of Those "need For Speed" Questions. Shit My Friend Thought For The Longest That You Could Just Convert Any Fwd Into An Rwd Or Even Awd By Just Swapping Drivetrains Without Any Sort Of Fabrication Cus Of Forza

Lol>

[toycar]

Just so you know bro fluids can be compressed.

The water at the bottom of the ocean is compressed by the weight of the water above it all the way to the surface, and is more dense than the water at the surface.

I dare you to deny that.

But yeah def air pump.

I suppose the most important part, of what I was saying I left out. It takes so much pressure to compress liquids, that its not even remotely possible with the stroke of a combustion engine that would be found in a car.

See I thought it was safe to assume that we were all talking about the compression created by a motor, and wether or not its an air pump vs fluid pump. Not the science of wether or not its even possible-by any means....

Better explanation for what I meant?

I understand that under great force, most liquids CAN be compressed. I was referring to any scenario that involves an engine in a car being used to compress a liquid.

Not going to happen. Can liquids compress, sure-it can happen. Look at how a water jet machine works. Its just not going to happen inside of an engine.

Anyways, for what its worth the guy I was arguing with, DB, is smart as shit and knows his stuff. I dont think he was arguing what I was hearing now that ive re-read this thread, particularly his post(s) referring to the term "fluid".

i still think it was one of those "need for speed" questions.

Agree 100%, and when the Science conversation started he probably wasn't interested.

otherwise, he would've learned about the science prior to asking...

lol