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Motor build for the winter: F23/F22Ax hybrid. Good idea?

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    Motor build for the winter: F23/F22Ax hybrid. Good idea?

    So, despite the fact that my car's a bit new for this forum (97 CD5, which I've heard referred to on here as being a CB in a dress), I figure you guys would know more about the F22Ax heads than people on the 5th gen forums. Car currently has an F22B2 in it, with a lovely rod knock. Still starts every time, runs fine, but once it warms up and everything expands nicely, the knock becomes audible, and the engine makes about 30 less horsepower. Naturally, its time for a new motor.

    Because H22 swaps are expensive, and everywhere, and because I don't think vtec is the shit, I'd like to go in another direction with it. Car will eventually be boosted, and since its a daily, I'd prefer some good solid midrange power over a high-revving screamer.

    Whatever I throw into it, I will be doing a stock rebuild on (basically just all new bearings, rings, and seals). An F22A6 would be cool, especially due to the ease of using a DSM turbo setup, but because they are a much older engine than my car, I'll likely run into issues with some sensors not being there and if whoever inspects it sees an older motor as bad. F23A would work, bolt in and all the sensors are there, but the head still kinda sucks like the one on my F22B2, and the vtec is nothing worth writing home about.

    So, F23A bottom end, with an F22A6 head, F22A4 header (until boost), and H23 intake mani. I'd think that since the F23 makes like 140-150hp, even with a fairly poor-flowing head and exhaust mani, there should be a couple ponies from adding a lot more airflow capability (since the F22A6 makes 140 with just 2.2L and less compression ratio), that combo alone should be pretty ballsy, and able to be run on my current ECU. Since its all factory honda parts, it shouldn't arouse too much suspicion when inspection time rolls around.

    The only things that shouldn't bolt right together are the water pipe, and I need to install a plug into the block, correct? Ideally I can get all of these parts from one or two junkyard shopping sprees.

    Will I run into any problems that I'm not seeing when putting this thing together?

    #2
    there should be no problem with the waterpipe, unless you use a water pipe from a F22 engine with a oil cooler on the oil fliter. to get around that just take the oil cooler off too and put it on your f23 block.

    the things you'll need to put the engine together is the timing gear from the same engine you took the head from, and a oil control orifice.

    Comment


      #3
      Awesome, so parts list for junkyard shopping spree consists of:

      F23 bottom end
      F22A6 head with cam gear
      F22A6 crank pulley (which should fit on the F23 as far as I know
      Any accessories that come with the motor that I can snag to sell on the forums. Like alternators. Or unneeded sensors.
      F22A6/H23 intake mani
      H23 upper intake plenum and throttle body
      F22A4 tubular header
      Grab the oil control orifice out of the F22 I steal the head off of(I believe that's the little plug thing I was thinking of before)

      Non-junkyard parts:
      -Delta 262 or maybe 272 regrind
      -DSM 390cc injectors (depending on if the piggyback I get will work well with them, or if the manual swap happens before boost or not)
      -2.5 inch heavily resonated exhaust ending in either a dynomax muffler or an apexi WS2.
      -bearings, rings, seals, etc

      A 5-speed trans and the associated pedal assembly, shift box/cables, if I can find one. Oh yeah, my car's an automatic, and this engine will be running on an OBD2 F22B2 ECU for a bit. Not ideal, but the current motor probably makes about 90hp if that once it warms up, through an automatic transmission, the car is slow as shit. Based on just about nothing, uncammed the new motor should make a good 150-175hp, so certainly a noticable gain from what I've got now.

      Comment


        #4
        people like to talk trash about the delta regrinds, and i myself purchased a bisi regrind. F23 block looks very interesting; what are the benefits over f22a block?

        Be Clean

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by nostringz View Post
          people like to talk trash about the delta regrinds, and i myself purchased a bisi regrind. F23 block looks very interesting; what are the benefits over f22a block?
          Well for my car (a 1997 LX sedan, I'm one of the CD5T refugees), its even more of a direct swap both mechanically and electrically, since both are OBD2, so every sensor is already there. Plus, the block is newer than the car, so people (more specifically people inspecting my car) can't complain that I have an older motor swapped into the car.

          Other cool things about the F23: 2.3L displacement (obviously), 55mm mains, a 97mm stroke, gobs of torque, 86mm bore and floating wrist pins (allowing you to drop K20 pistons right into it for a cheap bump to 10:1+ compression), and iron sleeves. Generally a little stronger than an F22's stock internals, and from what I've read the block stiffness and girdle are really hefty.

          Less cool things: Cylinder head is basically the same as the F22Bx's, so small ports and mediocre flow. VTEC is kinda pointless on these motors. Intake manifold is really good though.

          I want a torquey motor with stupid amounts of low end and midrange for a 4 banger. The F22A6 head will provide plenty of airflow, the dual runner intake will help low end torque and high end power. The A4 header will be good until I hang a DSM mani and a 16G or something off the side of the motor. The delta will add some nice gains to all of it. In theory, this build will be cheap, and effective. With some quick spooling low boost, it should be fairly nasty.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Phate View Post
            Awesome, so parts list for junkyard shopping spree consists of:

            F23 bottom end
            F22A6 head with cam gear
            F22A6 crank pulley (which should fit on the F23 as far as I know
            Any accessories that come with the motor that I can snag to sell on the forums. Like alternators. Or unneeded sensors.
            F22A6/H23 intake mani
            H23 upper intake plenum and throttle body
            F22A4 tubular header
            Grab the oil control orifice out of the F22 I steal the head off of(I believe that's the little plug thing I was thinking of before)

            Non-junkyard parts:
            -Delta 262 or maybe 272 regrind
            -DSM 390cc injectors (depending on if the piggyback I get will work well with them, or if the manual swap happens before boost or not)
            -2.5 inch heavily resonated exhaust ending in either a dynomax muffler or an apexi WS2.
            -bearings, rings, seals, etc

            A 5-speed trans and the associated pedal assembly, shift box/cables, if I can find one. Oh yeah, my car's an automatic, and this engine will be running on an OBD2 F22B2 ECU for a bit. Not ideal, but the current motor probably makes about 90hp if that once it warms up, through an automatic transmission, the car is slow as shit. Based on just about nothing, uncammed the new motor should make a good 150-175hp, so certainly a noticable gain from what I've got now.
            you'll need the timing gear from the f22a. it's a small gear on the crank that the timing belt runs on.

            Comment


              #7
              You're also going to need an F23 crank pulley bolt. The F22 will not fit. I know from experience. I successfully completed my F23/F22 swap about a month ago.


              1990 CB7 - Almost Done - Delta 272, SRI, 2.25 catback, Bisi intake manifold gasket, A6 intake double stacked, H22 plenum, AEM cam gear, F23a block, F22a head, Wiseco K20 pistons, DSM 450cc injectors

              2004 Z33 - Brembo BBK, Nismo spoiler, Nismo lip, Nismo shift knob, AEM CAI

              Comment


                #8
                OP, make sure you reference this thread on person doing same hybrid that ran into problems. Do not make same mistake.

                http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthre...63#post2629663
                HondaFan81 For Sale Parts (LOW PRICES ON EVERYTHING)

                Comment


                  #9
                  F23A1's straight from japan go for $350 cnd here. You really got me thinking of doing this too.

                  I was just gonna swap the F23 and boost it but man the F22A6 head sounds beastly.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by SleepyG View Post
                    F23A1's straight from japan go for $350 cnd here. You really got me thinking of doing this too.

                    I was just gonna swap the F23 and boost it but man the F22A6 head sounds beastly.
                    I figure I can grab a complete F23A from the junkyard for $125 or so out the door including all tax, an F22A6 cylinder head, H23A intake mani, and F22A4 exhaust mani for about $100. Delta cam is like $75. Headstuds aren't too expensive either. Then throw in the prices of gaskets and belts and shit, and I might be out $500. And I can probably sell the F23 head for some cash too (like $50) to someone who wants to add vtak to their F22 for some reason. The F23 intake mani will also sell quickly to the 5th gen guys.

                    OR, if I feel like being really clever, since I only need the bottom end of the F23, I can unbolt the head/intake mani, and buy them separate from the block, then make use of their 30-day return policy for the head/intake after I've ascertained that everything runs well. Or just talk to them since I go there all the time and see if they will let me run the motor out in the yard to listen for ticks and knocks, then take it apart for the bottom end, since that's all I need.
                    Last edited by Phate; 09-28-2010, 10:57 AM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Can anyone explain the differences between H23, F22a6, and F22a4?

                      Why is the a4 header best?

                      Why is the a6 head better?

                      Would the H23 head not flow just as well?

                      I know I can get a whole H23 for $500 and under 120k on it.
                      For the 170hp it makes, thats not too bad.

                      I am interested in this mainly because if I can throw the F23 in and run it without the vtec for a bit that would be super convenient.

                      Would the end result of the head swap have to be converted to OBD-1 so it can be tuned??

                      Lastly where do F22a6's come from? How avail are they?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by SleepyG View Post
                        Can anyone explain the differences between H23, F22a6, and F22a4?

                        Why is the a4 header best?

                        Why is the a6 head better?

                        Would the H23 head not flow just as well?

                        I know I can get a whole H23 for $500 and under 120k on it.
                        For the 170hp it makes, thats not too bad.

                        I am interested in this mainly because if I can throw the F23 in and run it without the vtec for a bit that would be super convenient.

                        Would the end result of the head swap have to be converted to OBD-1 so it can be tuned??

                        Lastly where do F22a6's come from? How avail are they?
                        Let's see if I can remember all of this off the top of my head.

                        H23 = h-series, 87mm bore, 95mm stroke, *** FRM sleeves, DOHC non-vtec head with good flow, good dual runner intake manifold with big throttle body and plenum. From Prelude Si's.

                        F22A4 = F22A1 with a good header (4-2-1, about as good as many aftermarket ones, especially if you put a bigger collector on), Iron sleeves, 85mm bore, 95mm stroke, I think a more aggressive cam. From the 90-91 accord EX if I remember correctly.

                        F22A6 = F22A1 with a normal exhaust mani, more aggressive cam than F22A4 if I remember, cool dual runner intake mani, came in 92-93 accord EX. One of these with the header from an F22A4 makes decent power.

                        F23A1 = F series with iron sleeves, 86mm bore, 97mm stroke. SOHC vtec that doesn't do much, pretty good intake mani. came in 98-2002 accord LX and EX

                        F23A4 = F23A1 with some more emissions equipment that robs some power. Otherwise the same. Came in 98-2002 LX and DX as an option.

                        F23A5 = F23 with a non-vtec head, lower compression from larger dish in pistons, not much power

                        All F22A's are OBD1, F23's are OBD2. I'm going to run my hybrid motor on an OBD2 non-vtec ecu (using all the OBD2 sensors from the F23 bottom end), and the dizzy from my F22B2. F22A's have AWESOME cylinder heads with big ports. With port work, they can get insane flow. F23's cylinder head is meh. Slightly better than the F22B1, but still pretty lame. The vtec is nothing worth writing home about either.

                        The reason I'm going with the F22A head over the H23, is that I want to stay SOHC. Before the turbo parts get added, it will look like a stock motor, perfect for hustling.
                        Last edited by Phate; 09-28-2010, 11:49 PM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Thanks for that in depth info Phate.

                          So then an H23 head on an F23 bottom(fack FRM sleeves lol) could be pretty beastly too if ported/polished? I assume any H series header would fit on this?

                          Staying SOHC is nice tho, only gotta buy one cam and can keep your ECU.

                          So you are just gonna use a piggy back to tune it?
                          Last edited by SleepyG; 09-29-2010, 03:08 PM.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Can the F23 crank just drop into the F22 block?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by SleepyG View Post
                              Thanks for that in depth info Phate.

                              So then an H23 head on an F23 bottom(fack FRM sleeves lol) could be pretty beastly too if ported/polished? I assume any H series header would fit on this?

                              Staying SOHC is nice tho, only gotta buy one cam and can keep your ECU.

                              So you are just gonna use a piggy back to tune it?
                              H23 head would probably be more beastly than the F22A6 head would, but I like SOHC. Compression would also drop a little bit compared to with an F22A cylinder head (it calculated to something like 9.2:1 with an F22 head on an F23A1 block).

                              Its not getting boosted right off the bat, so I might just let OBD2 do its thing to optimize it a little bit. If it needs a bit more fuel, I'll increase the fuel pressure some by clamping the return line. When it does get boosted, its not going to be running a lot of boost, so I'll probably just run either an SAFC with the 390cc injectors I have, or just use the FMU that I have for a bit. Once I frag the slushbox, its getting converted over to stick and tuned on a chipped P28 on crome with some larger injectors. If I feel like really getting stupid, I'll grab a Holset HE351VE and start breaking shit and ruining tires.

                              Originally posted by Sarthos View Post
                              Can the F23 crank just drop into the F22 block?
                              No, the F22 block has 50mm main bearings, the F23 has 55mm mains. You should be able to drop an F23 crank into a 97+ H22A4 though, as they also have 55mm mains, to stroke it out to 97mm.
                              Last edited by Phate; 09-30-2010, 02:47 AM.

                              Comment

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