Camshaft and IM for Turbo - F22A6

[CB7Nub]

I want to start to make some real power with my A6.

1) Would a H23 IM be better for turbo vs the stock A6 IM?
2) For cams I've been looking at Bisimoto and Delta cams, just not sure want to get. The Bisi's will probably better but what do you guys think? Note: I will be N/A for a while before I turbo.
3) With the cam would I have to swap ECU's? I heard the PT6 ECU you can't do much. If I get a ECU I'd like to use the same one when I have the turbo installed IF possible.
4) H23 TB vs A6 TB for turbo?

Overall in the end I plan to make at least 300 WHP and I know it will take a lot of work and $$, not to mention knowledge. Note I'd be running the cams on a stock auto tranny until turbo comes, this is also a daily driver throughout the Canadian winter. Budget wise, I want to do it right the first time, so no "cheaping" out but I also don't want to go all out.

[quaidum]

well i can say i have the bisi turbo cam 1.2 but have not installed the turbo as of yet. it runs fine when na and have been told that since it has more overlap in a na car it will give it better gas mileage.
i am running on a stock 93 ex ecu my idle is still fine not one bit off.

i would recommend getting an h23 plenum and throttle body being that they both have more volume

[deevergote]

I want to start to make some real power with my A6.

1) Would a H23 IM be better for turbo vs the stock A6 IM? I know the A6 intake manifold is supposed to be the best flowing head Honda has ever made.

The H23 intake manifold will be better no matter what. At least the H23 plenum and throttle body... the runner length differs between the two, and can determine where in the powerband your power falls.

The A6 intake manifold is just that, an intake manifold. Not a head. The head is the part that the intake manifold bolts to. The F22A head IS one of the best flowing Honda heads, after modification. In stock form, the exhaust ports are fairly restrictive.

2) For cams I've been looking at Bisimoto and Delta cams, just not sure want to get. The Bisi's will probably better but what do you guys think? Note: I will be N/A for a while before I turbo.

Bisimoto cams have a lot more specific research done. Delta cams are merely inexpensive regrinds. Delta doesn't really know anything about the F22A. They're a good cheap solution, but there is no comparison. That's like trying to decide between a Hyundai Tiburon or a BMW M3.
A cam isn't really necessary for your goals. It would not be beneficial to run the cam without a turbo, so this would not be a worthwhile "middle of the road" upgrade.

3) With the cam would I have to swap ECU's? I heard the PT6 ECU you can't do much. If I get a ECU I'd like to use the same one when I have the turbo installed IF possible.

You cannot turbo your car on a stock ECU. You will need a tunable ECU, tuned for your particular setup. Yes, you can get this ECU and have it tuned for your car as it is now, and then tuned again when you go turbo. It does cost money, however. A modified ECU is not something you can simply plug in and expect it to work. You CAN get generic tunes out there, but you really would not be wise to drive on them. They are regarded as "basemaps", and are intended to get the car running enough so that an experienced tuner can make changes... so the car can run safely. A common ECU to use is the P06, from the non-VTEC 92-95 Civic.

4) H23 TB vs A6 TB for turbo?

You have to use the TB that goes with the manifold you're using. There is no option on the TB alone.

Overall in the end I plan to make at least 300 WHP and I know it will take a lot of work and $$, not to mention knowledge. Note I'd be running the cams on a stock auto tranny until turbo comes, this is also a daily driver throughout the Canadian winter. Budget wise, I want to do it right the first time, so no "cheaping" out but I also don't want to go all out.

Cams? You only have one cam, bud. And as I said above... there's no point in running a turbo cam on a non-turbo car. It'd be a waste of money. Your goals don't really require a cam anyway.

I would NOT suggest boosting an automatic. Tuning is difficult, and turbo tends to kill our old, abused automatics very quickly. If you want turbo, the first thing you should be looking into is a manual conversion.

[CB7Nub]

The H23 intake manifold will be better no matter what. At least the H23 plenum and throttle body... the runner length differs between the two, and can determine where in the powerband your power falls..

Ah ok thanks.

The A6 intake manifold is just that, an intake manifold. Not a head. The head is the part that the intake manifold bolts to. The F22A head IS one of the best flowing Honda heads, after modification. In stock form, the exhaust ports are fairly restrictive.

That's what I get when I type too fast.

Bisimoto cams have a lot more specific research done. Delta cams are merely inexpensive regrinds. Delta doesn't really know anything about the F22A. They're a good cheap solution, but there is no comparison. That's like trying to decide between a Hyundai Tiburon or a BMW M3.
A cam isn't really necessary for your goals. It would not be beneficial to run the cam without a turbo, so this would not be a worthwhile "middle of the road" upgrade.

Ok, so couldn't I get for example a Bisi 1.2 cam and run that until I get turbo? Why not? Also the 1.2 cam is the same price as the level 2 and 2.3 cam, I know they are mean't for other purposes but would it be worth to get those instead of the 1.2 later on if I still plan to turbo?

You cannot turbo your car on a stock ECU. You will need a tunable ECU, tuned for your particular setup. Yes, you can get this ECU and have it tuned for your car as it is now, and then tuned again when you go turbo. It does cost money, however. A modified ECU is not something you can simply plug in and expect it to work. You CAN get generic tunes out there, but you really would not be wise to drive on them. They are regarded as "basemaps", and are intended to get the car running enough so that an experienced tuner can make changes... so the car can run safely. A common ECU to use is the P06, from the non-VTEC 92-95 Civic.

Thanks, what about other ECU's like P28?

You have to use the TB that goes with the manifold you're using. There is no option on the TB alone.

Fair enough.

Cams? You only have one cam, bud. And as I said above... there's no point in running a turbo cam on a non-turbo car. It'd be a waste of money. Your goals don't really require a cam anyway.

Yeah I know it's SOHC..., but still wouldn't I get a decent gain with that? Are you talking about my final goals?

I would NOT suggest boosting an automatic. Tuning is difficult, and turbo tends to kill our old, abused automatics very quickly. If you want turbo, the first thing you should be looking into is a manual conversion.

Yeah I'm definitaly going get a 5 speed swap before I go turbo.

Note I'd be running the cams on a stock auto tranny until turbo comes

quaidum, when got the cam or turbo or anything else installed give me a shout if you can and tell me how it goes.

[quaidum]

i have the cam installed in my car and have been delivering pizzas in it for about 700 miles
it was turboed with the cam installed and my turbo seals went to shit(had oil dripping from my exhaust, the pipe was only 5 feet long and about a 1/4 of a quart in the intercooler).
i believe that i had to much oil pressure going in the turbo, running 3an feed and 10an return,but i thought the adapter i put into the housing was a restrictor but it must not have been which caused them to go out.

but anyway i took the turbo off and converted it back to na b/c my wagon's motor died and i need a car to deliver pizza so it was easier to convert the coupe back to na than to swap my motor in the wagon.

didn't take the cam out b/c i talked to this person who guided me through building my coupe motor(he does alot of honda stuff mainly d15, d16, and some b series) but he has an integra with a b18 bone stock daily commuter well he had a set of turbo cams for it and a set of stock cams and measured them with his micrometer and noticed what minor differences they had and experimented with putting them in his na daily driver( not intending on making power but getting better gas mileage) when he drove around he noticed that the car was getting better mpg but i am not sure how much i will have to ask him next time i talk to him. he has not mentioned anything negative about the drivability of the car.

i am not sure how much power it will make on a na car but you can install it and drive it with a stock ecu still. but don't buy it unless you are fully sure you are planning on going to turbo.

check out my coupe link and see what i have done to my car there is a list closer to the bottom of the first page that is more updated and a video of the turbo on first start up on the second page. haven't done anything to the thread in a while i probably should

[deevergote]

NA cams require significant overlap to make power. Turbo cams are the opposite. A proper turbo cam shuold have very little overlap (and I assume Bisi knows how to design a proper turbo cam.) A turbo cam will not make power without a turbo... in fact, you may lose power. You can drive with it, sure. But it's an unnecessary investment.
For 300whp, a cam is not really necessary. Not a bad investment, but you can make 300whp without a cam. Honestly, the part you need to be concerned about is the bottom end. Your ringlands are most certainly going to give out at that level of power, even if driven carefully. That's the first thing to fail in any stock-block turbo setup. You'd be wise to spend your money on upgrading the internals before you bother with the head.

I wasn't saying that you won't make power because it's SOHC... I merely mentioned that because you said "cams"... you only have one cam in the F22A. Unless you're going to buy some backup cams, there's no need to pluralize.


As for ECUs, the P28 is a VTEC ECU. You could probably use it, and disable VTEC... but it'd be a waste of money and effort. P28s are often more expensive than P06s.





Do a bit of research on your own, as this is getting to be borderline spoonfeeding...
Read up on how a camshaft works, and how performance cams work. Both NA and turbo. Understand the significance of overlap, lift, and duration.

Look at the cars of other members. Look at their build threads. Read about their plans, their probelms, what went wrong, and what they did to correct it. Staff members chessboxer, evil_demon_01, and boost_lee would be good ones to start with. All 3 have had boosted stock-block F series engines. All 3 have had their problems. All 3 know what they're doing.

[wed3k]

id go with a gutted h23 plenum

[Shag Wagon]

When I put my Delta 272 in my wagon it ran so rich for some reason that it would barely move. You HAVE to get tuned when you install a cam. I mean you can roll around like that for a few hundred miles but I wouldnt. But I will say this, when you put that cam in the F22a, its a whole different animal. It will act like an H22a basically because it will just take off after 5k rpms and it pulls hard all the way to 6800.

[deevergote]

When I put my Delta 272 in my wagon it ran so rich for some reason that it would barely move. You HAVE to get tuned when you install a cam. I mean you can roll around like that for a few hundred miles but I wouldnt. But I will say this, when you put that cam in the F22a, its a whole different animal. It will act like an H22a basically because it will just take off after 5k rpms and it pulls hard all the way to 6800.

Keep in mind that he wants a low-overlap turbo cam. Even tuned, it won't do much for a non-turbo engine.

I swear, does anyone understand how camshafts work around here?

[Shag Wagon]

Keep in mind that he wants a low-overlap turbo cam. Even tuned, it won't do much for a non-turbo engine.

I swear, does anyone understand how camshafts work around here?

I dont lol. All I know is that you need to tune the bitches when you install them. And Bisimoto has THE best cam hands down. Did anybody see that bump n grind thread?

[quaidum]

Keep in mind that he wants a low-overlap turbo cam. Even tuned, it won't do much for a non-turbo engine.

I swear, does anyone understand how camshafts work around here?

it won't do much for power but it will give you better gas mileage i do know this for a fact before i was getting about 28-29 in the city now i am getting 33mpg in the city, this is delivering pizza.

i am not saying to go buy this cam if you want more gas mileage b/c that would not be they way to go. it doesn't make my car any faster like deev said and probably not making any more power but i didn't put it in for na reason's i just left it in there b/c the car was already turbo and there is no point in taking something out and replacing it if it is not necessary plus it does help with my job every bit of mpg count when you use over 100 gallons a month

i know there is more to understanding camshafts than lift, duration, and overlap but have never gone into it to much. like if you want your powerband to be at a certain rpm i would NOT be able to tell you what lift, duration, and overlap you would want to run to acheive this as well as the timing of the cam

[deevergote]

It's all relative to the other things done to the car... that's why simply buying a random camshaft isn't the best idea. Once you start working on things like that, you have to take everything else into consideration. To do it right, anyway.

[wed3k]

Keep in mind that he wants a low-overlap turbo cam. Even tuned, it won't do much for a non-turbo engine.

I swear, does anyone understand how camshafts work around here?

isnt that the stick that spins around at 2x the speed and hits valves open and stuff?

[quaidum]

isnt that the stick that spins around at 2x the speed and hits valves open and stuff?

but it doesn't spin twice the speed, that is the crank.

[rexload]

I want to start to make some real power with my A6.

1) Would a H23 IM be better for turbo vs the stock A6 IM?
2) For cams I've been looking at Bisimoto and Delta cams, just not sure want to get. The Bisi's will probably better but what do you guys think? Note: I will be N/A for a while before I turbo.
3) With the cam would I have to swap ECU's? I heard the PT6 ECU you can't do much. If I get a ECU I'd like to use the same one when I have the turbo installed IF possible.
4) H23 TB vs A6 TB for turbo?

Overall in the end I plan to make at least 300 WHP and I know it will take a lot of work and $$, not to mention knowledge. Note I'd be running the cams on a stock auto tranny until turbo comes, this is also a daily driver throughout the Canadian winter. Budget wise, I want to do it right the first time, so no "cheaping" out but I also don't want to go all out.

Do you realize that your stock A6 intake manifold and camshaft are fine for 300wheel hp.... and actually a lot more hp....

I would be more worried about the bottom end if you are planning on running 300+whp on a daily driver.