New system

[gloryaccordy]

Wow, there's a lot going on in this thread...

Anywhoo my take on the whole 'SQ' thing can be summed up in these few points:
-You gotta take the music you listen to into account. If you listen to a lot of down south stuff, you'd be doing yourself an injustice by getting a tiny sealed box; a nice big tuned box would do you very nicely. If you listen to a lot of jazz or rock you could probably just get away with having good full-ranges and an empty trunk...

-SQ is a collaborative effort. You need good subs, a good amp, and even a good, solid box. A lot of lower frequencies can be lost through a flimsy or poorly sealed box...you'd be wise to invest extra in a quality enclosure. I learned this firsthand...

-The average car stereo dude would be more than satisfied with an "average" setup...speaking of subs and SQ is kind of ridiculous IMO; most people really want SPL, as from what I know the two don't go hand in hand. I have never heard a complete system with SQ from top to bottom; meaning the subs always sounded detached or separate from the insides. SQ would mean having the bass be in proportion to the rest of the music, which IMO would make bass heavy stuff pretty boring. I can listen to that light dynamic stuff in my house...I want my car to knock.

So here's what I think makes for a good sub setup:
-Having full range speakers with as much low frequency reproduction as possible (especially in the front of the car) so you can set the lowpass to as low of a setting as possible
-Having convincing, somewhat 'linear' response all the way down to about 20Hz...one may argue 'you can barely hear those frequencies' and they'd be right...but IMO having a sub is about FEELING the music, and the lower you go the more the bass is about hitting and less about hearing.
-Having a good HU with some kind of parametric EQ capabilities, along with a good amp, subs, solid box, etc...

Personally, the only reason I have subs in my car is because the insides I have don't reproduce anything below 40-50Hz whatsoever, and I'm planning on getting rid of the sub/amp setup once I get new insides. Subs are a drain on the electrical system, they always sound detached from the car (in my experiences), they add weight and are thief food, and shouldn't be necessary. I've heard STOCK systems that sound awesome and easily put my system to shame (SQ wise, def. not SPL wise). So I dunno...that's my take.

[GSteg]

you keep going back to the human throat...but we are talkin about SQ here....how can we guage the SQ that our vocal cords reproduce...when was teh last time you heard of artificial vocal cords being used to make high SQ sounds...yeah, didnt think so...

The reason I make the human voice comment is to show that if the human throat system is not made up of round cones, then why is your assumption of a round cone produce better SQ than a definite side cone? After all, a guitar does not have circular cones. The shape of the string is technically a long cylinder. We see the human voice as the perfection of human voice reproduction. Last I heard SQ tracks, instruments of oddshapes and voices were recorded, not round speakers.

So if the instruments do not use round cones, then why is it that round cones are the best reproducer of sound? The cone shape has almost nothing to do with reproduction of sound waves. There are other factors such as motor force, xmax, etc that determines intermoduation distortion, 2nd/even/third harmonic distortion before cone shape takes into affect. Those are all the qualities that affects the subwoofer's ability to reproduce sound, not cone shape.

also, ribbon tweeters are great for reproducing high-frequency tones, which is a whole different ball game from producing high SQ subs...thats why you dont see kicker making ribbon tweets...

No it is not a different ballpark at all. Over the century, the basic design of speakers have not changed. Take a look at the anatomy of a conventional dome tweeter and a midrange speaker. A tweeter does not require any more than a midrange to produce high frequencies. The only difference is the small coil of the tweeter, which benefits from the inherited low inductance. Same basic structure. Move air to make sound. There are no other ways to make sound, unless you want to try to defy the law of physics. I dare you to cut in half a subwoofer and a tweeter. The fundamental parts of speakers are the same. It just happens that ribbon tweeters are more suited for high frequencies is because the thin aluminum foil resonates at a higher frequency.

but anyways...it doesnt matter if L7s can have SQ or not, i just think that it would be much easier to the novice audio enthusiast to undertake getting some SQ oriented subs to work with, rather than taking spl subs, and making them sound better....

You could have just said that in the beginning and that would be it, but instead you attempted to defy physics by throwing all these terms together, which resulted in BS.


Want to know why the Kicker L7s aren't that great to begin with? I'll give you a hint. Definitely not the shape of the cone. Think motor force vs. excursion and think about suspension compliance vs. excursion. To spice it up a bit more, motor force vs. ported box.


Because of all this that has been going on, I do not want to make anybody think that I have hatred against any of you, particularly to you mondaljackal.

Hopefully this thread will become a good resource for someone down the line.

[haibane]

Wow, there's a lot going on in this thread...

Anywhoo my take on the whole 'SQ' thing can be summed up in these few points:
-You gotta take the music you listen to into account. If you listen to a lot of down south stuff, you'd be doing yourself an injustice by getting a tiny sealed box; a nice big tuned box would do you very nicely. If you listen to a lot of jazz or rock you could probably just get away with having good full-ranges and an empty trunk...

-SQ is a collaborative effort. You need good subs, a good amp, and even a good, solid box. A lot of lower frequencies can be lost through a flimsy or poorly sealed box...you'd be wise to invest extra in a quality enclosure. I learned this firsthand...

-The average car stereo dude would be more than satisfied with an "average" setup...speaking of subs and SQ is kind of ridiculous IMO; most people really want SPL, as from what I know the two don't go hand in hand. I have never heard a complete system with SQ from top to bottom; meaning the subs always sounded detached or separate from the insides. SQ would mean having the bass be in proportion to the rest of the music, which IMO would make bass heavy stuff pretty boring. I can listen to that light dynamic stuff in my house...I want my car to knock.

So here's what I think makes for a good sub setup:
-Having full range speakers with as much low frequency reproduction as possible (especially in the front of the car) so you can set the lowpass to as low of a setting as possible
-Having convincing, somewhat 'linear' response all the way down to about 20Hz...one may argue 'you can barely hear those frequencies' and they'd be right...but IMO having a sub is about FEELING the music, and the lower you go the more the bass is about hitting and less about hearing.
-Having a good HU with some kind of parametric EQ capabilities, along with a good amp, subs, solid box, etc...

Personally, the only reason I have subs in my car is because the insides I have don't reproduce anything below 40-50Hz whatsoever, and I'm planning on getting rid of the sub/amp setup once I get new insides. Subs are a drain on the electrical system, they always sound detached from the car (in my experiences), they add weight and are thief food, and shouldn't be necessary. I've heard STOCK systems that sound awesome and easily put my system to shame (SQ wise, def. not SPL wise). So I dunno...that's my take.

You sir have obviously not heard my car . Hit up Iasca Finals next year if you get a chance. I plan on being there either next year or the year after. I am going to be running SQ. I think you would benefit by a 3 way setup up front. IMO, I would run the edi6500s with the eu700s. Only a 4 channel amp needed there and mild crossover work. You would have a fantastic front stage setup with low end all the way down to 20hz if setup right...

[gloryaccordy]

WOW 20Hz??? You have a link to these speakers? I'm really intrigued. I thought about running a 3 way setup up front, with a 6.5" sub and a 4" coaxial...what kind of setup is the one you suggest?

[haibane]

WOW 20Hz??? You have a link to these speakers? I'm really intrigued. I thought about running a 3 way setup up front, with a 6.5" sub and a 4" coaxial...what kind of setup is the one you suggest?

These speakers can go that low if they are crossed over like a subwoofer... they still go pretty low when crossed over at about 150hz or so but they don't have as much low end umph. I am currently doing 1" tweeters. 4" midrange, the 700s and a 12" sub for the extra low authority... that and I am using the 700s as a midbass instead of a subwoofer. I did the lowpass at 200hz thing with no highpass and that worked rather well too. You can find out more info on www.edesignaudio.com if you wish

[mondojackal]

The reason I make the human voice comment is to show that if the human throat system is not made up of round cones, then why is your assumption of a round cone produce better SQ than a definite side cone? After all, a guitar does not have circular cones. The shape of the string is technically a long cylinder. We see the human voice as the perfection of human voice reproduction. Last I heard SQ tracks, instruments of oddshapes and voices were recorded, not round speakers.

who's to say that our vocal cords produce high SQ sound waves, thats my pount...how do we know the phoenetical distortion that is applied by the movement of cords of fibers, as opposed to the movement of man-made speaker cones...

also, there are obvious differences between subwoofers and tweeters...subs are used in boxes...obviously, and the motor structure and the "cone" itself is designed with an entirely different purpose in mind..each designed specifically for a different task, to produce different frequencies of sound....yes, both use the same basic principle...an oscillating/resonating surface that produces sound waves of various sizes, both above and below the human spectrum of sound...

the xmax of subwoofers, compared with tweeters is different (while speaking of percents, not literal distances)

if given sub 1, an L7, has x amount of xmax, and given sub 1 has 2x amount of xmax, sub 2 will move more air, and also not distort as easily (given the same cone structural considerations and the same Thiele-Small parameters for each cone, obviously except for Qts, Qes, etc....) because the sub excursion isnt as limited by surround limits. if the speaker cone can move more freely to produce the desired frequencies, then it will not distort as easily as the sub that is pushed too far, and, in doing so, the cone distorts, producing low SQ...

i think thats what we were both trying to get to earlier...lol

[mondojackal]

You sir have obviously not heard my car . Hit up Iasca Finals next year if you get a chance. I plan on being there either next year or the year after. I am going to be running SQ. I think you would benefit by a 3 way setup up front. IMO, I would run the edi6500s with the eu700s. Only a 4 channel amp needed there and mild crossover work. You would have a fantastic front stage setup with low end all the way down to 20hz if setup right...

sound cool but why go for the extra effort of having 20 Hz comps on your front stage if your subs just overpower and produce the same frequencies...isnt that what a crossover is for....

[gloryaccordy]

But subs in the trunk just don't sound natural...

[GSteg]

But subs in the trunk just don't sound natural...

I've noticed they are a lot better in hatchbacks than in trunked cars. My buddy's sub in his Integra Type R sounds so much more natural and smoother than in my former acura legend, even though we had the same sub.

[GSteg]

who's to say that our vocal cords produce high SQ sound waves, thats my pount...how do we know the phoenetical distortion that is applied by the movement of cords of fibers, as opposed to the movement of man-made speaker cones...

Sound quality is defined as reproduction of the original source as the recorder intended it to be. Vocals are the utmost original sources of well..voices Anything after recording would be introduced with distortion, sadly. Whatever distortion we have, speakers will add its own distortion. A speaker will almost never be able to reproduce the human voice exactly the way nature does it


An oh yea. Tweeter do have their own enclosure. It's called the rear resonance chamber

[gloryaccordy]

I've noticed they are a lot better in hatchbacks than in trunked cars. My buddy's sub in his Integra Type R sounds so much more natural and smoother than in my former acura legend, even though we had the same sub.

Yeah, that's why I was thinking about an infinite baffle setup for a while...too much work/hassle though and I can't change it back. But think about it- your amp/subs have to work pretty hard to get the bass THROUGH the back seat/rear deck, so there will be some significant signal changes. And whether its a hatchback or not, the distance from the back wall of the trunk and the back window are far enough to make a noticeable phase difference between the fronts and the subs, so if you're just running fronts and subs, unless you delay the fronts just right it will always be out of phase...

...on the other hand though if you have decent midbass in the front door, and just have the super-low end coming from free-air subs in the rear deck, it'll all be a lot more natural. That's probably why a lot of manufacturers have IB setups stock (as well as for space/weight purposes).