70mm too big?

[Vtechno]

is a 70mm throttle body too big for the f/h motors? i know for the b series (which is where i came from), youve got too be reving pretty high too get the full potential, but the f/h motors are massive and i figured cram as much air in there as possible. i will no be turboing my h22, but i do plan on spraying.

[93a-lude]

i have a 71mm-68mm on my h22a its breath's perfect.......sounds like a rocket suking in .........lol

[owequitit]

is a 70mm throttle body too big for the f/h motors? i know for the b series (which is where i came from), youve got too be reving pretty high too get the full potential, but the f/h motors are massive and i figured cram as much air in there as possible. i will no be turboing my h22, but i do plan on spraying.

That might be slight overkill on a stock one. Maybe something in the 64-68 mm range might be better, unless of course you are going to mod it shortly.

The stock H22 TB has an inlet of 62MM and tapers down to 60MM, and an S2K TB is a popular upgrade as it is 64MM. I don't know what it tapers too though, or if the throat is bigger than 64MM.

[F20A CB7]

Aint it all about the INTAKE MANI than jus how big the THROTTLE is, i mean u can have a the biggest THROTTLE and have a small IM and u aint gainin anything,

Am i some wat rite?

[owequitit]

Aint it all about the INTAKE MANI than jus how big the THROTTLE is, i mean u can have a the biggest THROTTLE and have a small IM and u aint gainin anything,

Am i some wat rite?

With NA EVERYTHING matters. The intake manifold is a huge part of it, but a big nasty intake manifold doesn't do you any good if the Throttle body (which is the door to the IM) can't get enough air into the intake manifold.

IMO, Honda's stock throttle body sizes in most cases are too small. I have consistently seen very good gains from slight throttle body upgrade. On the D, F, B series engines. I haven't messed with the H yet, because I am deciding which way I want to go. But with the stock throttle body it has a lot of the same symptoms that the other Hondas I have dealt with have.

[TheNextEpisode]

With NA EVERYTHING matters. The intake manifold is a huge part of it, but a big nasty intake manifold doesn't do you any good if the Throttle body (which is the door to the IM) can't get enough air into the intake manifold.

IMO, Honda's stock throttle body sizes in most cases are too small. I have consistently seen very good gains from slight throttle body upgrade. On the D, F, B series engines. I haven't messed with the H yet, because I am deciding which way I want to go. But with the stock throttle body it has a lot of the same symptoms that the other Hondas I have dealt with have.

That's pleasing to hear.

BTW, was your experience with bored throttle bodies also with ported/polished intake manifolds? Or was it with the intake manifold/throttle body port bored to the diameter of the throttle body?

[93a-lude]

hey i have a 71mm tappered dwn to a 68mm with a 1 1/4'' custom aluminum TB spacer and a skunk 2 I.M. all of which is bored to 68mm to match the T.B. and spacer....my h22 runs dtrong with that.....jus my .02

[owequitit]

That's pleasing to hear.

BTW, was your experience with bored throttle bodies also with ported/polished intake manifolds? Or was it with the intake manifold/throttle body port bored to the diameter of the throttle body?

Honestly, I have used mostly stock Honda TB's. I haven't been real impressed with the quality of most bored or aftermarket units I have seen.

Skunk 2's stick, and need to be sanded and messed with. For the price that is stupid.

I have seen Maxbore's overcenter, triggering TPS check engine lights. Not as big of a deal, but still a pain.

I put a B series on my old d-series, and it was pretty nasty for the level of mods it had. Well essentially with just a 106HP non VTEC D16Y7 with a 92-95 EX manifold it was into the 15's, and then with the addition of an alright header, it dipped damn near into the 14's on a relatively hot day.

The F22 had an H22 TB and plenum which really improved the powerband over the F22 equivalents. I don't remember what was on the B series, but I remember it was stock.

One thing I have noticed with all of them, is that they tend to choke up high. I.E. If I go from 3/4-WOT, there is really no change, or at least not much of one at all. After the TB, you could at least feel the difference, and it would typically pull better into the rev limit.

Keep in mind though, that I usually only went a few MM larger. I think the about 5MM in both cases.

The best way to do it would be to dyno tune it, but that is hard to do.

I am going to do that pretty soon with mine though. I have a 2.5" DC collector vs a 2" one, I am thinking about picking up some of the IM spacers, and then I will also try the TB and a tune if I can afford it. The problem is that with as much as it costs, I don't know if I will be able to try all of them seperately.

[TheNextEpisode]

Honestly, I have used mostly stock Honda TB's. I haven't been real impressed with the quality of most bored or aftermarket units I have seen.

Skunk 2's stick, and need to be sanded and messed with. For the price that is stupid.

I have seen Maxbore's overcenter, triggering TPS check engine lights. Not as big of a deal, but still a pain.

OK, that's good to know. I've been looking to send out my throttle body to maxbore when I had a chance, but after hearing that, I'm leaning a little more towards the f22c throttle body. I'll put a little more research into it first, but thanks for pointing me in the right direction

I put a B series on my old d-series, and it was pretty nasty for the level of mods it had. Well essentially with just a 106HP non VTEC D16Y7 with a 92-95 EX manifold it was into the 15's, and then with the addition of an alright header, it dipped damn near into the 14's on a relatively hot day.

The F22 had an H22 TB and plenum which really improved the powerband over the F22 equivalents. I don't remember what was on the B series, but I remember it was stock.

One thing I have noticed with all of them, is that they tend to choke up high. I.E. If I go from 3/4-WOT, there is really no change, or at least not much of one at all. After the TB, you could at least feel the difference, and it would typically pull better into the rev limit.

Keep in mind though, that I usually only went a few MM larger. I think the about 5MM in both cases.

Yeah, actually the h22 feels kind of that way with the 3/4 to WOT throttle feel. Granted I felt it a lot more on the f22, I'd like to see if the f22c throttle body will make it a little more responsive.

The best way to do it would be to dyno tune it, but that is hard to do.

I am going to do that pretty soon with mine though. I have a 2.5" DC collector vs a 2" one, I am thinking about picking up some of the IM spacers, and then I will also try the TB and a tune if I can afford it. The problem is that with as much as it costs, I don't know if I will be able to try all of them separately.

Yeah, the dyno tune between intake mods would be fantastic. The price is stopping me too, though. I've been looking into replacement/ ported and polished intake manifolds for my H. I've heard mixed review with the Skunk2 IM, mostly bad.

I was also looking at the intake manifold packages blacktrax has to offer. Their dyno charts, however, generally show a loss of horsepower below 3-4k rpm, with the loss being proportionally larger under 3.5k rpm as the gain above 3.5k becomes bigger. I'm tempted to send an intake manifold to be worked on and then pick up some phenolic gaskets and maybe an IAB spacer.

I'd rather dyno tune between each modification though, to see exactly what benefits I'd be getting from each mod. But yeah... price.

No one has anything bad to say about the Euro R intake manifold, so maybe like with the throttle body, I should just go with OEM Honda.



SORRY TO THE OP FOR GETTING OFF TOPIC!!

[Vtechno]

i had the intake mods down with my d series too. b20z tb and y8 header for spray or z6 for all motor. worked extremely well. ive got vids of me riding out on 2 swapped hatches and an rsx.

when i built my ls hatch i did massive amounts of research on teh intake manifolds and found that the performer x from edelbrock worked extremely well.....but they dont make them for the f/h series....why? i was thinking about the skunk2 combo. you mentioned the tb's stick, thats not a big problem for me. how well do the manifolds work though? i use to owork at a machine shop and the owner is one of my best friends and he gets me big discounts on aftermarket parts. plus he kinda sponsors me with some labor and im sure he'll work with the tb for me. ive also just been thinking about just port matching all my stock intake components. when i build my Pathfinder's plenums, it made a HUGE difference. more opinons please.

[TheNextEpisode]

Yeah, when I referring to the Skunk2 intake manifold, I was referring to the first IM. I remember 2point6 making a thread on honda-tech where he posted dyno charts before and after using the skunk2 intake manifold. He reported that he had lost power when using the skunk2 IM compared, I THINK, to a euro r intake manifold.

I'm desperately searching through ht looking for that thread but I haven't had much luck.

I'm still sort of interested in the skunk2 pro series IM though. I saw a dyno chart (here ) claiming 211 hp on a relatively stock H. They went on later to explain that that day, they baselined a couple other h22s at 180-190 hp. So I think it'd be safe to assume that dyno was overestimating hp by maybe 10-15 hp.

Nonetheless, if that skunk2 pro series IM had that h22 making nearly 200 hp, that would be pretty remarkable. And skunk2 only wants 300 bucks for it so its not all that pricey either.

I guess my only reservation would be how much low end the skunk2 pro series IM would lose. That dyno chart is revealing, but its a little difficult to believe/analyze when the dyno is most likely reading pretty high.

I don't know though, maybe I'm searching for the wrong thing. I'd like to see 55+ hp in the top end without losing too much low end. But is that physically impossible? I mean, is it possible to design an IM that has volume sufficient for high flow in the high end without losing too much down low power?

[Vtechno]

I mean, is it possible to design an IM that has volume sufficient for high flow in the high end without losing too much down low power?

maybe a bit exagerated, but not that far off. i followed Larry Widmer's (owner of endyne) 300hp all motor b20/vtec and he goes into great detail about the intake assembly.....great stuff too read. he hits on every aspect of the intake system. he would be the one too speak with about an intake manifold. he does custom ones. hes super fucking cool. i spoke with him about advice about going too school.

[owequitit]

Yeah, when I referring to the Skunk2 intake manifold, I was referring to the first IM. I remember 2point6 making a thread on honda-tech where he posted dyno charts before and after using the skunk2 intake manifold. He reported that he had lost power when using the skunk2 IM compared, I THINK, to a euro r intake manifold.

I'm desperately searching through ht looking for that thread but I haven't had much luck.

I'm still sort of interested in the skunk2 pro series IM though. I saw a dyno chart (here ) claiming 211 hp on a relatively stock H. They went on later to explain that that day, they baselined a couple other h22s at 180-190 hp. So I think it'd be safe to assume that dyno was overestimating hp by maybe 10-15 hp.

Nonetheless, if that skunk2 pro series IM had that h22 making nearly 200 hp, that would be pretty remarkable. And skunk2 only wants 300 bucks for it so its not all that pricey either.

I guess my only reservation would be how much low end the skunk2 pro series IM would lose. That dyno chart is revealing, but its a little difficult to believe/analyze when the dyno is most likely reading pretty high.

I don't know though, maybe I'm searching for the wrong thing. I'd like to see 55+ hp in the top end without losing too much low end. But is that physically impossible? I mean, is it possible to design an IM that has volume sufficient for high flow in the high end without losing too much down low power?

See, this relates to a post I just made in another thread, that has recently become heated.

The point I made was this. Engines in general, and NA applications especially, are a system. Each part performs one function in a large series of functions. All of these little functions add up to equal the total function, which is how the engine works. Think of it like a human body. You are made of thousands of seperate parts working together to make life possible. A change to one system will have an effect on every other system, and usually not desirable.

Honda spends millions, if not billions, of dollars developing an engine that best meets their performance criteria. They have guys with PhD's specializing in such seemingly unimportant things as how metal expands making $60,000+ a year to explain these things. They have thousands of these employees. These employees understand that everything must work together.

This is why most people fail at engine building, or at least don't get what they could out of it. They do not optimize the entire system to work together. The more intense the build, the more important this is.

A good example is the big block Chevy comparison I found in a mag a ways back. Yes, I have used it before, but it PERFECTLY illustrates what I am trying to say.

They had an engine competition to see who could build the baddest big block. There was some pretty trick stuff in there. Some with 2,3 and I think 4 carburetors. Lots of P & P, and lots of cubes. Guess who won? The most conservatively built engine there. And he didn't just win by a little, he won by a lot. His slightly punched out 572 put down 810 crank HP NA. Without the most radical cam, heads or valves. He didn't have the highest compression, and he didn't have the biggest carb. In fact he used one fairly small (compared to the others, and the size of his engine) one. The point that should be illustrated is that ALL of his parts were designed to work together. There was no 1 single part on that engine that gave a 100HP gain. It was everything working together.

Same with a Honda, but even more critically so, because you have less displacement to work with. So people who slap a Skunk 2 on their car and expect it to work wonders, when it was designed to work best with other parts, are silly. They waste money. And more times than not, they brag about how badass their car is, because they have XXX done to it. They rattle off this huge list of stuff. And then they get their ass beat by some car with less power, or more stock because their parts don't work together.

I watched a fully built B20 Civic CX hatchback that was completely stripped out, get its ass handed to it by a fully loaded stock H22 powered Accord. Why? Because the build parts weren't optimized to work together.

To some extent Honda's main priority wasn't performance, which is why you can get gains from bolt ons. They had to make the car fuel efficient. It had to pass emmissions, it had to be quiet, and it had to last a long time. The result of a lot of this is that they had to choke stuff down. The H22 runs rich, because even though it loses power, it helps the engine not detonate, and thus last longer. So you can get basic power gains out of it. But when you start changing the basics of how air gets into and out of the cylinders (IM's, cams, P&P heads etc) it gets a lot more complicated.

I was going to make several observations.

If you double stack the Blacktrax IM spacers, the dyno showed no real loss in the bottom end, and a pretty significant gain up top. That might be something to consider.

Also, at some point, 2point6 had modified the stock H22 manifold in a way that it outperformed both the Euro R and the Skunk 2, but I don't know how, so you would have to ask him. I do know that a lot of people remove the IAB plate, and some even remove the webbing that the IAB system creates. Look at Hondafan81's White Accord project thread, and take a look at his IM to see what I am talking about. You can see how opened up the manifold got.

Honestly though, if the rest of the engine is stock, I would expect the best gains from something like the blacktrax spacers, a Hondata IM gasket, and an upgraded throttle body,like an S2K unit, because you don't have the rest of the engine to take advantage of extreme intake mods.

If you do decide to go more built, just remember, the devil is in the details. Things like portmatching TB openings, and runner flanges is vital. Lots and lots of little stuff.

[Vtechno]

See, this relates to a post I just made in another thread, that has recently become heated.

The point I made was this. Engines in general, and NA applications especially, are a system. Each part performs one function in a large series of functions. All of these little functions add up to equal the total function, which is how the engine works. Think of it like a human body. You are made of thousands of seperate parts working together to make life possible. A change to one system will have an effect on every other system, and usually not desirable.

Honda spends millions, if not billions, of dollars developing an engine that best meets their performance criteria. They have guys with PhD's specializing in such seemingly unimportant things as how metal expands making $60,000+ a year to explain these things. They have thousands of these employees. These employees understand that everything must work together.

This is why most people fail at engine building, or at least don't get what they could out of it. They do not optimize the entire system to work together. The more intense the build, the more important this is.

A good example is the big block Chevy comparison I found in a mag a ways back. Yes, I have used it before, but it PERFECTLY illustrates what I am trying to say.

They had an engine competition to see who could build the baddest big block. There was some pretty trick stuff in there. Some with 2,3 and I think 4 carburetors. Lots of P & P, and lots of cubes. Guess who won? The most conservatively built engine there. And he didn't just win by a little, he won by a lot. His slightly punched out 572 put down 810 crank HP NA. Without the most radical cam, heads or valves. He didn't have the highest compression, and he didn't have the biggest carb. In fact he used one fairly small (compared to the others, and the size of his engine) one. The point that should be illustrated is that ALL of his parts were designed to work together. There was no 1 single part on that engine that gave a 100HP gain. It was everything working together.

Same with a Honda, but even more critically so, because you have less displacement to work with. So people who slap a Skunk 2 on their car and expect it to work wonders, when it was designed to work best with other parts, are silly. They waste money. And more times than not, they brag about how badass their car is, because they have XXX done to it. They rattle off this huge list of stuff. And then they get their ass beat by some car with less power, or more stock because their parts don't work together.

To some extent Honda's main priority wasn't performance, which is why you can get gains from bolt ons. They had to make the car fuel efficient. It had to pass emmissions, it had to be quiet, and it had to last a long time. The result of a lot of this is that they had to choke stuff down. The H22 runs rich, because even though it loses power, it helps the engine not detonate, and thus last longer. So you can get basic power gains out of it. But when you start changing the basics of how air gets into and out of the cylinders (IM's, cams, P&P heads etc) it gets a lot more complicated.

I was going to make several observations.

1) If you double stack the Blacktrax IM spacers, the dyno showed no real loss in the bottom end, and a pretty significant gain up top. That might be something to consider.

Also, at some point, 2point6 had modified the stock H22 manifold in a way that it outperformed both the Euro R and the Skunk 2, but I don't know how, so you would have to ask him. I do know that a lot of people remove the IAB plate, and some even remove the webbing that the IAB system creates.

Honestly though, if the rest of the engine is stock, I would expect the best gains from something like the blacktrax spacers, a Hondata IM gasket, and an upgraded throttle body,like an S2K unit, because you don't have the rest of the engine to take advantage of extreme intake mods.

exactly. its all about the science!! lol

its not about how much air you can inhale, its how its inhaled.
smooth as glass isnt always better. especially in the plenum. the air rushes in too fast and cant make the turns. thats why good engine builders leave it a bit course. it slows the air down. there are so many different tips and tricks. typical bolts ons arnt designed too work with your combination right out of the box. my opinion is get what you want, and have it "tuned" too better accomidate eachother. head work is the major factor in my opinion. i know the LS motors are starved for air, and any air upgrades you can do, make a difference. im not sure how true that is too the f series.

its a chain reaction. more air means you need more fuel. more fuel means more spark....ect. i can go on an on.
debating is a great learning tool. my statements are on GENERAL engines. not specific ones. there for i will more than likely be slightly off on some stuff.


im not saying im an almighty engine builder or anyhting. i know a fair amout, but no where near "good". when most people my age go out and get wasted on the weekends, i read about stuff liek this. cause im a nerd, lol.

i worked at a cylinder head shop and i built my old ef sedan there. it was basically stock, but i paid very close attention too my/our machining.

the end result with a vitrually stock, COMPLETELY REBUILT (with loads of machining) d16a6 in an ef sedan killed:
b16 eg hatches
b18 ek hatches
rsx
v6 mustangs
v6 cameros
99-00 si's

i have video as proof.

it was nice too pop the hood and see their reactions when they noticed they got walked by a wee single cam.

one kid got so mad, he sold his car the next day.

[owequitit]

I also wanted to mention that NOT all aftermarket TB's seem to be bad.

The maxbore issue I mentioned may be fairly isolated, but since Murphey is a dick to me, I usually end up with those, so I just don't chance it.

It was actually Hondafan's TB. I think he also has a DHracing one.