head swap

[deevergote]

Ok, that goes for engine swapping and modding cars in general.

It doesn't mean it's a bad idea, which was your original statement.

For the possible gain, it's a big risk. Plus, swapping in an entire engine is easier to understand... at least when it comes to things like the h22, h23, or f22b dohc.

Turbo, ok... I always say the same for that as well. However, when the possible outcome is 250whp on stock internals, the risk is much more justifiable.

For 20hp, the potential problems associated with a headswap are a bit too much for my tastes. If you KNOW what you're doing, you don't need to ask. If you need to ask, you don't know what you're doing.


The ONLY reason to do a headswap is to say that you've done it. The benefits are minimal.

[tuner2be]

deev i know what your saying, BUT, i don't entirely agree, think about what you said, if this guy is asking about head swaps then he most likely cant do it right,

so the last thing you should say is go turbo. thats WAY more complicated.

i think you should wait several months before doing any serious work, and you should spend a lot of time on these forums reading and learning.

[d112crzy]

The ONLY reason to do a headswap is to say that you've done it. The benefits are minimal.

A head swap with everything you need shouldn't cost more than $400.

Just an h23 head swap will yield very close numbers to an f22b dohc. My dohc swap cost twice as much.

About 80% of h22's swaps done here cost quadruple what an h23 head swap costs, but the ACTUAL(whp, not honda rated hp) gains are similar.

I kept up with stock h22's. I'm sure an h23 head swapped car would be very comparable to my car. Even more so if the head was milled.

It is worth it. There are more than noticeable gains. And it really isn't hard.

Swapping an engine is more involved, harder, and takes longer than swapping a head. I should know, I've done both.

[deevergote]

You can't use your tuned F22B running against that poorly-tuned H22 as a benchmark, though.


Careful shopping might yield a price lower than $500, but it's unlikely. When all is said and done, it'll be expensive.

[deevergote]

deev i know what your saying, BUT, i don't entirely agree, think about what you said, if this guy is asking about head swaps then he most likely cant do it right,

so the last thing you should say is go turbo. thats WAY more complicated.

i think you should wait several months before doing any serious work, and you should spend a lot of time on these forums reading and learning.

Turbo isn't that much more complicated. The tuning is fairly complex, but the turbo stuff itself is actually dirt simple. As far as our cars go, a turbo is just one big bolt-on. The DSM kit with a big 16g, properly tuned, would be reliable and powerful... and easy to install.

Swap a head, you have to block oil passages (not for the F22B DOHC, though, right?). You have to replace the HG and TB (good to do anyway, but more stuff). You have to be sure to do those things without warping the head, properly lining up the timing marks, and properly torquing everything. Right there are five potentially catastrophic situations if you don't know what you are doing.

Turbo, you drill the holes for the manifold. Room for error there. You modify the O rings for the injectors. Not difficult. You remove the oil pan and drill holes for the oil lines. A pain in the ass, but nothing that can cause a major problem. You run the charge pipes (if you don't get them pre-made, that can be a pain... but also not difficult). You get a chipped ECU, and find a place to have it tuned. More than a headswap? Probably. $ per hp? Significantly lower.

I'd spend more money for less risk, less work, and more gains... but that's just me.

Of course, headswap OR turbo, I wouldn't make the car a daily driver.

[10thcb7]

I'd just like to add a comment that a head swap replaces alot of seals and gaskets which may not make it faster but *should* make it reliable compared to a swap that hasnt been replaced. Unless some one does a head swap improperly; how do you do that again ? ? ?

[tuner2be]

Turbo isn't that much more complicated. The tuning is fairly complex, but the turbo stuff itself is actually dirt simple. As far as our cars go, a turbo is just one big bolt-on. The DSM kit with a big 16g, properly tuned, would be reliable and powerful... and easy to install.

Swap a head, you have to block oil passages (not for the F22B DOHC, though, right?). You have to replace the HG and TB (good to do anyway, but more stuff). You have to be sure to do those things without warping the head, properly lining up the timing marks, and properly torquing everything. Right there are five potentially catastrophic situations if you don't know what you are doing.

Turbo, you drill the holes for the manifold. Room for error there. You modify the O rings for the injectors. Not difficult. You remove the oil pan and drill holes for the oil lines. A pain in the ass, but nothing that can cause a major problem. You run the charge pipes (if you don't get them pre-made, that can be a pain... but also not difficult). You get a chipped ECU, and find a place to have it tuned. More than a headswap? Probably. $ per hp? Significantly lower.

I'd spend more money for less risk, less work, and more gains... but that's just me.

Of course, headswap OR turbo, I wouldn't make the car a daily driver.

all that shit is going to cost way more than the earlier said $500. and he seems like he dosnt know that much about hondas/engine performance.

[d112crzy]

Actually deev, doing a head swap is less involved than doing a turbo setup. You may have more parts to deal with, but that all depends on where you start and what your goals are.

Seriously, don't speak from hear-say or think say. You've never done either, I have.

Gotta block oil passages? Oh god, a big blob of honda bond!! How complicated is that!??

Just ask all the people that have done the head swap, it's not hard. The hardest part is probably making sure the timing belt is on properly.

As far as reliability goes, a turbo on a stock ecu will most likely blow your engine. An h23 on a stock ecu won't.

Don't press your own worries or opinions on someone or on a topic and make it pass as the end all of things. That's what you're doing. You're steering someone away from doing something because YOU THINK it's hard and unreliable.

Nonetheless, I agree that if you have to ask, it's most likely a task you don't want to take on.

But then again, when I started, I bugged the fuck out of wikked. He put me in my place tho. That's why I don't ask questions. I go do it.

[deevergote]

You're right. I really am presenting my opinion a bit more strongly than I probably should.



Still, I know of more failed headswaps than reliable ones... including most of those done by wikked. Many of them were done by knowledgeable people, and they still had issues. For a total beginner, it's perhaps not a very good idea.

The best way for someone to decide if their choice to do something is a good one is to defend it. You want to do a headswap? Why? These are the potential problems. Combined with the level of knowledge and experience you have, this is what I think. Defend it. If you can remain confident that you want to do the headswap after defending it against me, go for it. You might even succeed. Jose, YOU would succeed. You're probably the only one in this thread, myself included, that would.


The potential for problems, coupled with the assumed lack of knowledge and experience, makes a headswap a very risky undertaking for the minimal gains that can be had. Turbo, while it presents a similar number of problems, at least justifies the risk a bit more through the potential gains.
In either case, I would not recommend doing a headswap OR a turbo if it's your only car. Hell, just pulling the head and replacing it with the same could create issues for a total beginner!

You have to start somewhere, but start smart.

[camdizawg]

reply

thanx for the info.... i do know how to do head swaps i have done several. i just dont like the idea of modding the oil lines on the h23 head, or i would go with that for sure. i didnt really want turbo because i wanted the "stock" look and also do not really want to do the complete engine swap just yet, besides in hawaii it is next to impossible to find a h22 engine. if i was i would go h22 all the way for sure. just looking for a better head. anyone know where to get that jdm DOHC head??

[deevergote]

The F22B DOHC heads are fairly difficult to find. The motors are pretty popular at the moment (the main swap decisions are usually F22B DOHC or H22). It's hard to find just the head, at least in good shape!

If you've done headswaps in the past, then perhaps it would be something you could handle. The H23 headswap isn't really all that complicated. As d112crzy said, just some HondaBond in the holes. I believe we have a DIY for it here... not positive.


If you can, build an H22 piece by piece. I just kinda started doing that unintentionally! I got the head to replace my damaged one... $200. Then I got a bare block for a trade (f22a transmission). Now all I need to do is get a crank, some forged internals, and all the necessary seals and gaskets... and I'm in business! When all is said and done, I should have a fully built H22 for the same or less than the cost of my original stock one. It just takes time to hunt down the deals.

[camdizawg]

thanx deev you tha man. ya i know it wouldnt be that dificult to do the h23 route, but seems stupid becouse the bore is a little diferent and you dont get the torque you would from a complete swap, and also i heard you need to change the bottom crank pulley and water pump which makes that swap more expensive..getting close to the price for a complete h23 swap. i have the f22b1 complete engine but i figured i need to pull the head any way to do some porting and it would be easier to put it on the b2 block that is already in my engine bay assuming it is the same block last question is there ANY difference between the b1 block and the b2 block?

[d112crzy]

you don't need to change the water pump....

You use the lower timing gear, not the pulley.

b1 is ricer vtak, b2 is just shit.

[deevergote]

I believe the blocks are the same.

You don't need to change the water pump for the swap to work, but you should always change the water pump unless it's new. It's something that should always be in good condition, and while you've got things apart, it's the best time to do it.

[camdizawg]

yes from what i found yes they tha same but the b1 has the oil squirter. anyone know exactly where this is? i know its in the block, but where? under oil pan?