Crossmember/Rad support

[4thGen4dr]

Need some advice. My car is in the body shop right now from goin into a ditch and needs to have the cross member replaced cuz the front wheels are pushed back and I cant turn. They are saying that this will fix it and that none of the suspension parts were damaged. Does $315(labor alone) sound reasonable? This is just for the front and vertical crossmember peice that Im supplying

Also, they want to replace the core support too cuz its weakend and twisted on the bottom, but im skipping that. I got it to work and hold everything in place and my bumper can hide that for later. What yall think?

[hemlockz]

i think you could buy the ratchet, sockets, jack, and jackstands, thread loosener and new bolts for less than 1/2 the price he'll charge you to install it. but since its already in the shop they kinds have you by the balls. Does an alignment come with the installation?

[Caution]

tell u the truth...i go under there and take a look at it first myself...cuss shops are bigg asss ripp off 95% of the time!!!!! u probably do it ursefl for cheap

[WilliamW]

true some shops are. But with something like a cross member all you need to do is find a resionable shop that you trust to do the work. And an allignment should be included. I worked at meineke in the st. louis region and I've done a few suspension jobs and an allignment was part of the installation of the package.

[Smokinspeeds]

There's probably more to it than you realize. I have a similar issue with my right side from a hydroplaning incedent. The frame actually has to be pulled on a machine to trully straighten it out. It's something you want a shopt to do. And if the main support underneath is what I think it is, you def. need that replaced as well. It'll be a major safety hazard if you don't.

[deckeda]

... The frame actually has to be pulled on a machine to trully straighten it out. It's something you want a shopt to do. ...

Agreed. The crossmember is a serious thing that must be done right or the car will never align properly.

But what's more the bolts are secured with a million pounds of torque/ft --- even if you had the tools and a big-ass breaker-bar for leverage, you'd pull the car off the jackstands (and onto you) tightening them to spec.

Pay the money.

[4thGen4dr]

i think you could buy the ratchet, sockets, jack, and jackstands, thread loosener and new bolts for less than 1/2 the price he'll charge you to install it. but since its already in the shop they kinds have you by the balls. Does an alignment come with the installation?

True and no, the alignment is not included. I told them to go ahead and do just the cross member and it should be done today they said. I havent paid for anyhting yet but hopefully i can lower the estimate since he was suppose to hook me up

Another question, does the car have to be running for a alignment? Stupid question but my car has its radiator/fans out and the battery disconnected currently. I rather do that myself and bring it back. And I havent driven it in 3 months and have no idea whats gonna happen once the wheels are fixed. I started it up back in june and havent seen anyleaks or nothing checking it out yesterday.

[CustomLowz]

True and no, the alignment is not included. I told them to go ahead and do just the cross member and it should be done today they said. I havent paid for anyhting yet but hopefully i can lower the estimate since he was suppose to hook me up

Another question, does the car have to be running for a alignment? Stupid question but my car has its radiator/fans out and the battery disconnected currently. I rather do that myself and bring it back. And I havent driven it in 3 months and have no idea whats gonna happen once the wheels are fixed. I started it up back in june and havent seen anyleaks or nothing checking it out yesterday.

Technicaly the vehicle does not need to run. It would have to be pushed onto the alignement machine/lift. The car will have to be in neutral and the steering wheel straight. But the car being able to run will help out ALOT!

[4thGen4dr]

Technicaly the vehicle does not need to run. It would have to be pushed onto the alignement machine/lift. The car will have to be in neutral and the steering wheel straight. But the car being able to run will help out ALOT!

Thanks Custom!

Ok the Cross member is now replaced and I just checked the car out. The passenger wheel is now back in place BUT the driver wheel is still pushed back about a finger gap compared to the passenger. I can fit about 3 fingers instead of four behind it. So the car looks definetly drivable again. So whtas next is to get the radiator in and have it up and running.

Laaaast question, will the alignment fix my driverside wheel? I heard "washer shims" will be needed. Im just alittle nervous cuz theres already a new crossmember in and didnt fix it.

Thanks guys for all the help, I cant wait to get it back on the roads.

[Smokinspeeds]

If that's all it's sitting back I wouldn't worry about it unless you really really want it fixed. That would be the frame I mentioned. If you want it totally fixed you would have to have the frame pulled on a machine and that costs a mighty dollar. Mines sitting back quite a ways but so long as everything is in place the frame can be bent but it doesn't mean it's going anywhere. A one finger difference isn't much for another few hundred to have the frame itself pulled. Mines a good bit more than that, so I am going to have mine done. Considering what it's all gonna cost I've put it off for a bit while I'm saving up... (don't wanna say how much...) But no it's not gonna hurt anything being a finger width back.

[4thGen4dr]

If that's all it's sitting back I wouldn't worry about it unless you really really want it fixed. That would be the frame I mentioned. If you want it totally fixed you would have to have the frame pulled on a machine and that costs a mighty dollar. Mines sitting back quite a ways but so long as everything is in place the frame can be bent but it doesn't mean it's going anywhere. A one finger difference isn't much for another few hundred to have the frame itself pulled. Mines a good bit more than that, so I am going to have mine done. Considering what it's all gonna cost I've put it off for a bit while I'm saving up... (don't wanna say how much...) But no it's not gonna hurt anything being a finger width back.

Thanks for the info. I think my frame is ok, slightly sitting back less than a half a inch I think. Hopefully adding washers can pull my wheel back with a alignment.

Heres a ipic of what my front end looks like. Everything fits Radiator,fans, etc and no leaks. Doesnt look pretty but works. The body man is just making me paranoid saying not to get a alignment until everyhting else is fixed. What else do I need to do when he says all the suspension looks ok?

[deckeda]

4thGen4dr --- this is long, so go get a doughnut or some cookies.

The front-to-back adjustment of the wheel in the horizontal plane is caster. I recommend you Google it for an illustration. Caster is determined on our cars by the radius rods. Sorry if this is too basic, but I need to make sure we're all on the same page here.

The radius rod bolts solidly (no adjustment) to each lower control arm, and then the other end bolts to the crossmember and has two bushings, one on each side of the crossmember (front and rear of the crossmember). So, the radius rod is going through the crossmember.

How far in or out of the crossmember each radius rod is, determines caster for that side of the car. Such things as bushing thickness and whether or not shims have been added on the radius rod influence caster. Simply swapping the front and rear bushings on each radius rod will affect caster --- and they look alike.

So there are several things that could be causing your caster to be off, none of which should be terribly hard to figure out.

First, you it's helpful to know if all four bushings (two per side) are on the correct side of each radius rod. How do you know? The rear bushings are slightly thicker than the front bushings. Holding both in your hand won't tell the difference; you'd have to lay them down on a level surface and put a level on them to see.

(Incidentally, if these are reversed you'd have more neutral caster. The steering wheel wouldn't return to straight as easily on its own, and it would wander a bit more on the highway. On the other hand, at low speeds the steering wheel would be easier to turn away from center.)

Second, the crossmember has some wiggle room before being tightened down. Let me share something I learned from a Honda specialist who talked my ear off on the phone once about this. He's talked to several alignment shops, and many of them make it a practice to loosen the crossmember on Hondas in order to get caster back to spec, rather than add shims or whatever because that would entail removing each radius rod, add a shim, re-install, measure, possibly take it apart again --- not difficult but more time consuming than zip zip zipping the crossmember loose with air tools, measuring and tightening it.

Any time you loosen the crossmember there's a chance you won't get it tight again; remember what I said above about how tight the bolts should be? Like 180 ft./lbs, not something you can do at home on jackstands with a breaker bar without pulling the car off the jackstands on top of you!

If not tight, it'll wiggle and never hold alignment, and make some noise over bumps you'll never isolate.

Bottom line: When roadworthy, take it to a reputable alignment shop and TELL THEM you just had a new crossmember installed and that you can tell visually that caster is off on one side. Don't make them have to guess or hope that the alignment machine tells them, help them with what you know.

They should know from there if the crossmember needs to be tweaked or if they can fix caster with shims. Honda says use no more than two shims per side if necessary. Good luck!

[icemanxxxv]

I'm gonna chime in here. The thicker bushing goes in the front side of the crossmember per the Honda manual not the back you can only shimm the caster aft. Removing the shims brings it forward. If your caster is to the aft side your screwed. The only way to get it set back forward is to manipulate the crossmember or yank the frame.
My car is .6 out of caster on the right towards the aft with all the shims removed. So the only way to fix it would be to slip the crossmember or yank the frame. When I replaced the radius rod bushings I took the shim out of the right front in hopes that it would bring it into caster but I came up short. It is better than it was before but not perfect yet..
If I slip the crossmember I can add 1 more shim to the left(Honda says only two maybe installed) I have room to spare on the left side as it is a bit on the positive end of the caster range.
My plan is to scribe the aft edge of the right side of the crossmember and the front side of the left twink it an 1/8th inch. Take it back to NTB and have the caster checked. I've got a three year frontend alignment policy with them and I plan on getting my money's worth.
I really don't think 180 foot pounds will pull the car of jack stands. It sound like a bunch but with an 18 inch torque wrench that equates 135lbs of pull. If your car wont stay on the stand with that torque you got problems. Beside a 1/2inch impact will give 480 pounds of torque if its a good one anyways.
So Honda techs might say you can't slip the subframe but I say were there is room to wiggle there is room to shove.