Bisimoto F22 Lvl2 Cam Regrind Out of Spec!

[Jamworks$17]

This is my first post, I am a newbie, so be gentle.

First off, I am building a F20Z2 motor which is grossly underpowered and not the typical choice for a performance motor. In any case I've started and will see it through to the end.

Here's my problem. I bought a Lvl2 Cam Regrind from Bisimoto quite a while back and I've only just managed to continue my project. So I drop the Bisi cam into a spare cylinder head and with a Dial Indicator and a Degree Wheel I measure my lift, duration and timing. What I come up with is the following:-

Stock (F20Z2) , Bisimoto Level 2(measured) , Bisimoto Level 2(spec sheet)

Exhaust Lift (mm) 8.65 , 6.57 , 10.16
Intake Lift (mm) 9 , 7.6 , 10.16
Exhaust Opening (BBDC) 28 , 27 , -4
Exhaust Closing (ATDC) -23 , -33 , 27
Intake Opening (BTDC) -19 , -27 , 1
Intake Closing (ABDC) 38 , 16 , 41
Exhaust Duration 185 , 174 , 246
Intake Duration 199 , 169 , 258
Exhaust Centre 116, 120 , -
Intake Centre 119, 112 , -
Lobe Separation 117, 116 , 110
Overlap -42, -60 , -
*Valve timing was checked with zero valve lift @0.05 inches of valve lift


The first set of figures are the stock cam, the second the measured Bisi cam and the third, the spec sheet as provided with the cam.

Now, it's clear to see that I have significantly less lift and duration than the stock cam and as such I have been contacting Bisimoto for the past 3 months trying to get a response from them. I get the receptionist but the classic line is that the 'Engineers' are not in or they're at some show.

As it is a regrind, I had to supply my original cam which is a F20Z2 cam and not a F22a cam. I thought it shouldn't make a difference but sure Bisimoto would have said at some point if it was. It's a bit strange, in any case, to supply a performance regrind that is 'worse' than stock!

I doubt I have in my mind is whether the F22a cam and the F20Z cam have different cam lobe heights and base circle diameters. Unfortunately I do not have a F22a cam at hand so I can't measure it myself.

Does anyone know the base circle diameter and lobe height of the F22a camshaft?

[CB7Denmark]

This is my first post, I am a newbie, so be gentle.

First off, I am building a F20Z2 motor which is grossly underpowered and not the typical choice for a performance motor. In any case I've started and will see it through to the end.

Here's my problem. I bought a Lvl2 Cam Regrind from Bisimoto quite a while back and I've only just managed to continue my project. So I drop the Bisi cam into a spare cylinder head and with a Dial Indicator and a Degree Wheel I measure my lift, duration and timing. What I come up with is the following:-

Stock (F20Z2) , Bisimoto Level 2(measured) , Bisimoto Level 2(spec sheet)

Exhaust Lift (mm) 8.65 , 6.57 , 10.16
Intake Lift (mm) 9 , 7.6 , 10.16
Exhaust Opening (BBDC) 28 , 27 , -4
Exhaust Closing (ATDC) -23 , -33 , 27
Intake Opening (BTDC) -19 , -27 , 1
Intake Closing (ABDC) 38 , 16 , 41
Exhaust Duration 185 , 174 , 246
Intake Duration 199 , 169 , 258
Exhaust Centre 116, 120 , -
Intake Centre 119, 112 , -
Lobe Separation 117, 116 , 110
Overlap -42, -60 , -
*Valve timing was checked with zero valve lift @0.05 inches of valve lift


The first set of figures are the stock cam, the second the measured Bisi cam and the third, the spec sheet as provided with the cam.

Now, it's clear to see that I have significantly less lift and duration than the stock cam and as such I have been contacting Bisimoto for the past 3 months trying to get a response from them. I get the receptionist but the classic line is that the 'Engineers' are not in or they're at some show.

As it is a regrind, I had to supply my original cam which is a F20Z2 cam and not a F22a cam. I thought it shouldn't make a difference but sure Bisimoto would have said at some point if it was. It's a bit strange, in any case, to supply a performance regrind that is 'worse' than stock!

I doubt I have in my mind is whether the F22a cam and the F20Z cam have different cam lobe heights and base circle diameters. Unfortunately I do not have a F22a cam at hand so I can't measure it myself.

Does anyone know the base circle diameter and lobe height of the F22a camshaft?

Suck it up, same thing happened to me, spend over 1.500 dollars on the bisi lvl 2 + supporting mods for that specific cam + dynotune, guess what, stock A6 cam, i had NO gains, the supporting mods (PnP etc) gave me 5hp, that's it.

Let me inform you that I am in this lucky situation where I own an F22A3 which is sortoff an optimized version of the A6, pushing 150hp at the crank.

I modded the intake side and optimized the exhaust all the way through, this got me to 159hp, I then personally polished the head, installed springs, checked the head for faults and wear, assembled and dynotuned only to get 165hp, with my the kind of modification and higher C/R, i expected well over 170hp.

I've been furious ever since, because Bisi does not acknowledge when he fucks up, he does not respond you all of a sudden and you are left with a giant dent in your wallet and the $1500 I spend got me exactly no where.

I can check out my A3 cam when i'm around it again, but it's not going to happen within the next 2 months probably.

[kingmanchoppers]

for future ref. web cams good people great work

[deevergote]

Web makes Bisimoto's camshafts.


It sucks to see yet another person screwed over by Bisimoto. There's a reason they're no longer permitted to do business on this site. We used to be huge supporters of Bisi and his company, but far too many incidents like this have resulted in severed ties. Supposedly he's getting out of the Honda game. I wish he'd do us all a favor and hurry up. CB7tuners don't have money to waste on his faulty parts!

I'd imagine that the camshaft sent to you was originally an F22A camshaft, and not your F20Z2 camshaft reworked. That's how they usually do things to assure a swift turnaround... just take in cores, and send out pre-made parts. The cam sent to you SHOULD be spot on with the specs provided by Bisimoto, regardless of your original cam's specs.

[owequitit]

Bisimoto is a sham, and it is now well known here, but has been well known in other Honda circles for a long time. He does NOT have a good reputation in the rest of the Honda community either. I also seriously doubt he will be successful in the rest of the market with high end brands because they simply won't put up with his shit. Not only will they boycott him faster than he can hand them a T-Shirt, but they will sue his ass into bankruptcy.

[GhostAccord]

I remember calling him out on H-T back in the day. He would never reply to forum questions or return my calls. I talked to Heidi a few times and that was as far as I got. All I was trying to do was verify some data with him on his valvetrain components. Also wanted to know about his involvement in a scam over the development and testing of a light weight aluminum flywheel for the F series. Never heard from him directly. Ended up loosing money on the LWFW deal and I never bought any of his products or endorsed his wears since.

It always made me cringe seeing his banner across the top of the CB7Tuner forum page. He is just another snake oil salesman in my books!

[deevergote]

Bisimoto is a sham, and it is now well known here, but has been well known in other Honda circles for a long time. He does NOT have a good reputation in the rest of the Honda community either. I also seriously doubt he will be successful in the rest of the market with high end brands because they simply won't put up with his shit. Not only will they boycott him faster than he can hand them a T-Shirt, but they will sue his ass into bankruptcy.

The guys modifying Porsches and such usually have big bucks. Doctors, lawyers, etc... They'll definitely put Bisimoto 6 feet under in a VERY short time if he treats them the way he treated us!

I remember calling him out on H-T back in the day. He would never reply to forum questions or return my calls. I talked to Heidi a few times and that was as far as I got. All I was trying to do was verify some data with him on his valvetrain components. Also wanted to know about his involvement in a scam over the development and testing of a light weight aluminum flywheel for the F series. Never heard from him directly. Ended up loosing money on the LWFW deal and I never bought any of his products or endorsed his wears since.

It always made me cringe seeing his banner across the top of the CB7Tuner forum page. He is just another snake oil salesman in my books!

I wanted to get rid of it for quite a while. I tried to be civil, as he still had many supporters around here... but my patience was wearing thin. His latest representative asked me for control over the Bisimoto Store here on the forum, and I said I'd only do so if a discount were offered to my members. She offered me a "discount" that was actually higher than the price listed on the Bisimoto website. I politely told her to shove it up her ass.

[owequitit]

The guys modifying Porsches and such usually have big bucks. Doctors, lawyers, etc... They'll definitely put Bisimoto 6 feet under in a VERY short time if he treats them the way he treated us!



I wanted to get rid of it for quite a while. I tried to be civil, as he still had many supporters around here... but my patience was wearing thin. His latest representative asked me for control over the Bisimoto Store here on the forum, and I said I'd only do so if a discount were offered to my members. She offered me a "discount" that was actually higher than the price listed on the Bisimoto website. I politely told her to shove it up her ass.

I initially gave him the benefit of the doubt, but once his stuff actually started to reach the market here, it became clear very quickly that he was blowing smoke about the quality of his stuff. When the feedback on your product makes Skunk2 look good, you know you have a problem. It didn't take me long to figure out that I wouldn't be buying anything from him, no matter how tempting it seemed.

Some guys on here had good luck, but that might because he hoped he would sell them good product so they would praise it and other people would just line up and assume it worked on their cars. I don't know, but it didn't take me long to lose trust.

[gloryaccordy]

No more Bisi in 2016. Web Camshafts makes great products

[deevergote]

Unless he's lying about it, Web makes Bisi's camshafts. If they suck, it may be at least partially attributable to Web.
I might contact them about it, honestly. There are now three documented incidents regarding drastically out-of-spec bisimoto camshafts reported on this site alone. That's bad.

[wagon-r]

Does anyone know the base circle diameter and lobe height of the F22a camshaft?

F22A1:
Base circle diameter: Intake - 1.315". Exhaust - 1.337"
Max diameter: Intake - 1.514". Exhaust - 1.524"

F22A6:
Base circle diameter: Intake - 1.315". Exhaust - 1.338"
Max diameter: Intake - 1.525". Exhaust - 1.533"

Bisimoto cam (was supposed to be Stage 2, but exhaust duration was 21 degrees out of spec):
Base circle diameter: Intake - 1.255". Exhaust - 1.263"
Max diameter: Intake - 1.488". Exhaust - 1.465"

These may be a bit off, as I just used a caliper instead of the dial indicator I used to degree the camshaft on the cylinder head.

I will also echo others comments about Webcams.com. After I sent back my Bisimoto cam (which Bisimoto never even acknowledged that they received) I called Webcams. They were very cooperative and the cam they sent me was close to what they said it would be. (I forgot to measure the circle diameters before I installed it.)

[owequitit]

Unless he's lying about it, Web makes Bisi's camshafts. If they suck, it may be at least partially attributable to Web.
I might contact them about it, honestly. There are now three documented incidents regarding drastically out-of-spec bisimoto camshafts reported on this site alone. That's bad.

Webb has been around forever and regrinds tons of stuff for tons of people. I am not saying the QC issues isn't theirs, but I don't think it is them considering their previous history (remember 2point6 ran them for a long time) vs Bisi's history with...well, everything. He seemed to be a snake oil salesman and has the reputation as such amongst the actual reputable Honda community (those that actually build, tune and race stuff reliably).

If Webb was grinding his cams, then maybe he wasn't giving them proper specs or was providing cores that were too far gone (although you would think Webb would refuse those). Since he claimed they were all "custom ground for the application" I would still suspect an issue on Bisi's end given all of the other evidence.

[Accrdwgnguy]

Might as well go with a Delta re-grind, no one ever reported problems with them.

[deevergote]

I remember Bisi pretty much bashing Delta when he first came on the scene. I've heard of no issues from anyone with a Delta regrind... but I also don't know how many people here who have gotten Delta camshafts that knew enough to measure the camshafts to ensure they were in spec.

I have owned (but never installed) Delta 272 camshafts for both an F22A and an H22A. For the price and reputation, Delta is the way I would go.

Even Gude might not be a terrible option (though I have heard of one snapping... wasn't that you, Eric?) Awful customer service, but for the most part, their products seem decent.

Webb has been around forever and regrinds tons of stuff for tons of people. I am not saying the QC issues isn't theirs, but I don't think it is them considering their previous history (remember 2point6 ran them for a long time) vs Bisi's history with...well, everything. He seemed to be a snake oil salesman and has the reputation as such amongst the actual reputable Honda community (those that actually build, tune and race stuff reliably).

If Webb was grinding his cams, then maybe he wasn't giving them proper specs or was providing cores that were too far gone (although you would think Webb would refuse those). Since he claimed they were all "custom ground for the application" I would still suspect an issue on Bisi's end given all of the other evidence.

I have a suspicion that you may be right. Honestly, CB7Denmark got a 100% stock cam, from what he claims (and I don't doubt that claim), so I wonder if Bisi was even sending cams out to be reground.


Bisi seems to be aiming for the Porsche crowd now. It's funny... I'm actually looking into purchasing a 996 in the next few years. We may cross paths again on Porsche forums (and I have NO problem sharing the experiences of CB7tuner members with the Porsche guys!)

[Accrdwgnguy]

My Gude cam is still going strong! Well haven't driven the car more than 20 feet in the past 2 years, but I did put over 50k miles on the car with the cam in, and I bought the cam used with what I was told 6k miles on it. Untuned too on a PT6 ECM, H23 intake, full exhaust, no EGR. I'm not sure if anyone else in the community ever ran one. There may be others out there. I almost hopped on the Bisi bandwagon then this cam came up on CL for $100, so I got it and was quite happy with it.

I'd say the Delta 272 has been well vetted by the community. But if you have any doubts just google them, I came up with pages of reviews. They do cams for all makes.