F\H-22\23-4g63\64 Hybrid Question

[F22hybrid91]

Hello. I'm blueprinting a F22a Hybrid turbo engine. Here's my setup. F22A1 block and head, PnP head, 4g63 pistons, possibly 4g64 crank(most likely retain F22A Crank unless someone sees an issue with it.--> (see specs below), H22 H beam rods 4340, H23 Intake and T. Body, 2.25 custom exhaust with aftermarket ex manifold and down pipe, 4G63 Injectors, bisi 1.2 turbo cam grind, and bisi valve springs w/ titanium retainers. Planning on a 3 angle valve job with full rebuild on head. I'm planning on a rebuilt factory 4g63 turbo to push about 6-10 psi.

My Questions.
#1. Is there a better comparably priced turbo (someone is currently running reliable and loves it) to push this 6-10 psi? Maybe even a little more?

#2. Which tuning software would be recommended? I.E. Which is more user friendly? Hondata s300, or Neptune/Demon?

#3. Any other recommendations anyone can think of that I might be overlooking? I've got a longer list of parts including intercooler and msd 6a ignition, walboro 255 fuel pump, etc. Just listing the major parts. But anything that's commonly overlooked that you don't think about till your doing it and realize you need it?


Specs for the new rod\piston setup

F22 stock parts
Rod LENGTH 5.572
Comp Height 1.203
Stroke 3.740/2
all that = 8.645
Block Deck Height is 8.643

F22 H22 Rods 4g63 stroker pistons
Rod LENGTH 5.633 (h22 rod)
Comp Height 1.130 (Wiseco part# K596M85)
Stroke 3.740/2 (f22 crank)
All that = 8.633

0.012 difference.

Thanks for positive negative input!

[Jarrett]

This combination (minus the 4G64 crankshaft which isn't really feasible) is one people have been doing here for a while. Bisi even started marketing H22A rods and DSM stroker pistons as a custom long-rod combination for the F22A engines a few years ago.

1) That turbo would be okay if that's truly the level of boost pressure you'd like to restrict yourself to. In fact, I think there have even been a few DSM guys get into the 11s with that turbo, although that's more for bragging rights at that point and not because it's a properly-sized turbo. I would go for a 16G, instead. Large enough that you would have room to grow.

2) Hondata S300 would be the best non-standalone solution. The V3 is great and there are tons of resources provided by Hondata to help you get it up and going. Also, the ease of adding other features like widebands, EGT sensors or pressure gauges for datalogging is nice. It's what I have, too, but I think if I were to do it all over again I would buy the EMS v2. I really want to get rid of the cam sensors in the OEM distributor and go to a hall effect setup that the AEM allows for. Coil-on-plug would be nice, and while I can do that with Hondata, the distributor has to remain in place.

3) You won't need the ignition. Factory Honda ignitions have been used and proven sufficient in 500+hp builds. For your purposes, I would leave it as-is. As long as you match your plugs to the proper heat range and get new Sumitumo or NGK Blue plug wires, you should be fine.

[deevergote]

Your choice of turbo is very vague. In the US alone, the 4G63 came with both a 14b and a t25 (the 14b being on the 1st generation, and the better option for an F22A). The 16G is a good idea (specifically, the one on the Evo3 seems to be the most popular.) Your psi reference varies a fair bit in regards to the actual turbo you're planning on using. PSI alone means nothing without turbo specs for reference.
You're putting a LOT of expensive work into your engine, though. Why are you going with DSM parts specifically (I assume used...)? While the DSM parts (injectors and turbo) will work just fine, they're usually associated with budget builds. If you're putting a fair chunk of change into your engine otherwise, why not cough up just a little more and get brand new, modern components? Advances have been made in turbo design since the late 80s and early 90s, and I'm quite sure injector design has seen some improvement as well. Your plans regarding the turbo and injectors will work, but they seem an odd contrast to the rest of your plans. It seems almost as if you're using them just so you can stick to the F/H/4G63 hybrid idea.

Your exhaust diameter of 2.25" is fairly small for a turbo setup, I'd think. Doable, but it will certainly choke the turbo a bit. Might even result in an undesirable heat increase. For all the engine work you'll be doing, I feel such a narrow exhaust would possibly make your final outcome rather disappointing. I'd suggest 2.5" minimum... 3" if you can do it...

As for tuning, do you plan on tuning it yourself, or are you going to take it to a tuner? If you're doing it yourself, either option is good... though I agree with Jarrett that the Hondata S300 would be a great choice.
If you're taking it to be tuned by a professional, I would advise you to ask the professional what they are most comfortable using. The best tuning solution is useless if the guy tuning it doesn't know how to work it! Any tuner worth his fee should never agree to use a system he's not familiar with (and would you really want your project to be someone's guinea pig as they're figuring it out? I know I wouldn't!)

Finally, a word of advice due to the experiences of past members... when you get that Bisimoto camshaft, measure it. Or take it to someone that can. There have been two CB7tuner members that I am aware of that have gotten camshafts from Bisi that were totally wrong. One was WAY off spec (all attempts by the customer to contact Bisi and rectify the problem went ignored), and the other was revealed to be a completely stock camshaft (as with the first incident, all customer attempts to get things sorted out went ignored.)
If I knew of any other option for a turbo camshaft grind for the F22A, I'd direct you there. Sadly, Bisimoto is the only one I'm aware of that has such a thing. Therefore, I can only advise caution.

[wagon-r]

If I knew of any other option for a turbo camshaft grind for the F22A, I'd direct you there. Sadly, Bisimoto is the only one I'm aware of that has such a thing. Therefore, I can only advise caution.

I wound up getting my regrind (F22A naturally aspirated) done by Webcams. They worked with me on the specs that I wanted and seemed open to doing whatever I wanted (within the limits of what they could do to a stock camshaft). You might give them a call and see if they will grind a turbo cam to your specs.

[F22hybrid91]

Your choice of turbo is very vague. In the US alone, the 4G63 came with both a 14b and a t25 (the 14b being on the 1st generation, and the better option for an F22A). The 16G is a good idea (specifically, the one on the Evo3 seems to be the most popular.) Your psi reference varies a fair bit in regards to the actual turbo you're planning on using. PSI alone means nothing without turbo specs for reference.
You're putting a LOT of expensive work into your engine, though. Why are you going with DSM parts specifically (I assume used...)? While the DSM parts (injectors and turbo) will work just fine, they're usually associated with budget builds. If you're putting a fair chunk of change into your engine otherwise, why not cough up just a little more and get brand new, modern components? Advances have been made in turbo design since the late 80s and early 90s, and I'm quite sure injector design has seen some improvement as well. Your plans regarding the turbo and injectors will work, but they seem an odd contrast to the rest of your plans. It seems almost as if you're using them just so you can stick to the F/H/4G63 hybrid idea.

Your exhaust diameter of 2.25" is fairly small for a turbo setup, I'd think. Doable, but it will certainly choke the turbo a bit. Might even result in an undesirable heat increase. For all the engine work you'll be doing, I feel such a narrow exhaust would possibly make your final outcome rather disappointing. I'd suggest 2.5" minimum... 3" if you can do it...

As for tuning, do you plan on tuning it yourself, or are you going to take it to a tuner? If you're doing it yourself, either option is good... though I agree with Jarrett that the Hondata S300 would be a great choice.
If you're taking it to be tuned by a professional, I would advise you to ask the professional what they are most comfortable using. The best tuning solution is useless if the guy tuning it doesn't know how to work it! Any tuner worth his fee should never agree to use a system he's not familiar with (and would you really want your project to be someone's guinea pig as they're figuring it out? I know I wouldn't!)

Finally, a word of advice due to the experiences of past members... when you get that Bisimoto camshaft, measure it. Or take it to someone that can. There have been two CB7tuner members that I am aware of that have gotten camshafts from Bisi that were totally wrong. One was WAY off spec (all attempts by the customer to contact Bisi and rectify the problem went ignored), and the other was revealed to be a completely stock camshaft (as with the first incident, all customer attempts to get things sorted out went ignored.)
If I knew of any other option for a turbo camshaft grind for the F22A, I'd direct you there. Sadly, Bisimoto is the only one I'm aware of that has such a thing. Therefore, I can only advise caution.

The idea is a reliable "stage 1" setup on a mild budget with room to put larger aftermarket dsm turbo later as "stage 2" without having to build the bottom end. As this is being dropped into my DD I want to be able to just put a bigger turbo later when I recover from the expensive block build. I didn't give full specs but the exhaust manny and down pipe are aftermarket. I apologize for that.

Ultimate goal is reliable boosted hp that will last a long, long time, with proper maintenance.

Good to.know about bisi. I will be aware and measure if I buy from them.

[F22hybrid91]

This combination (minus the 4G64 crankshaft which isn't really feasible) is one people have been doing here for a while. Bisi even started marketing H22A rods and DSM stroker pistons as a custom long-rod combination for the F22A engines a few years ago.

1) That turbo would be okay if that's truly the level of boost pressure you'd like to restrict yourself to. In fact, I think there have even been a few DSM guys get into the 11s with that turbo, although that's more for bragging rights at that point and not because it's a properly-sized turbo. I would go for a 16G, instead. Large enough that you would have room to grow.

2) Hondata S300 would be the best non-standalone solution. The V3 is great and there are tons of resources provided by Hondata to help you get it up and going. Also, the ease of adding other features like widebands, EGT sensors or pressure gauges for datalogging is nice. It's what I have, too, but I think if I were to do it all over again I would buy the EMS v2. I really want to get rid of the cam sensors in the OEM distributor and go to a hall effect setup that the AEM allows for. Coil-on-plug would be nice, and while I can do that with Hondata, the distributor has to remain in place.

3) You won't need the ignition. Factory Honda ignitions have been used and proven sufficient in 500+hp builds. For your purposes, I would leave it as-is. As long as you match your plugs to the proper heat range and get new Sumitumo or NGK Blue plug wires, you should be fine.

10 is really the max I plan to do, it is my DD and I'm keeping reliability and drivability in mind, just want some extra oomph in the HP. My 91 EX\R just looks like its ment to have a turbo and go faster than it does. Haha

Glad to have solid input on tuning software. Would like to tune myself but most likely find someone for the first time and tweak from there.

Altho was wrecked by previous owner so engine bay space is a little tighter so some body work is in store when I get ready to drop it in.

Thanks for input and the info!