Thoughts on low pressure turbo set up

[bournetc]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone had run a low pressure turbo to make up for the lack of low end torque on F22AX/F22B2 engines? I have a 5th gen F22B2 (130hp, 139 lb-ft) and am looking for a 30-50hp and torque increase. The problem is I'm having a hard time finding a small, new turbo that would work. Another question is, should I rebuild my engine even though I'd run low boost levels? Any advice/thoughts are welcome!

[Joey GT-R]

By "low pressure", I'm assuming you mean Low PSI; which is a highly subjective term since PSI is not created equal between two different or even very similar turbo designs.

It's nice that you have a goal, but for the money you would spend, I would recommend an H22A Swap. It will be more reliable, less expensive, and with a decent tune would even overshoot your goals.

[lbus9168]

I don't see why you would bother with a turbo set-up like that.

You would be much better of just doing a hswap as stated.

[deevergote]

Even a low-boost setup is going to break your ring lands in a fairly short amount of time. It's not going to be cheap to do, and doing as cheaply as possible is going to be rather complicated (such as tuning the ECU.)

For the power increase you're looking for, I also support the H22A swap. It's going to be far less complicated, far more reliable, and potentially cheaper than trying to go turbo.

[bournetc]

So what I mean by a low pressure turbo is a turbo that is sized to create full boost by a low RPM (say 2,000).

I thought about an H22A but the engine is around $1,000 (from ebay) + engine hoist $200 + ECU + whatever work the engine might need + whatever else comes up. Plus there's no way to increase hp if I decide its not enough. A turbo would be $300 for a kit (oil hoses, inter-cooler, etc) + $400 for turbo + $400 for hondata ECU + turning but has the potential to give me more power if I want it.

[illinois_erik]

So what I mean by a low pressure turbo is a turbo that is sized to create full boost by a low RPM (say 2,000).

I thought about an H22A but the engine is around $1,000 (from ebay) + engine hoist $200 + ECU + whatever work the engine might need + whatever else comes up. Plus there's no way to increase hp if I decide its not enough. A turbo would be $300 for a kit (oil hoses, inter-cooler, etc) + $400 for turbo + $400 for hondata ECU + turning but has the potential to give me more power if I want it.

$300 ebay turbo kit = new F22B2..how much will that cost? That thing is a turd anyway f/i or n/a
Buy an F20B DOHC VTEC, theyre cheap because theyre not yet a fad, a couple hundred for an OBD conversion and you have something reliable that will give plenty of shits n giggles, besides the conversion all youd need is a chipped ecu with a good basemap..then if you want to go boost, all youll need is a header and forged pistons and you wont have the FRM headaches like with all the other DOHC VTEC blocks. You dont need a cherry picker, I removed the F and installed an H w/o one thru the bottom with a floor jack and some wood, by myself for the whole ordeal.

[deevergote]

So what I mean by a low pressure turbo is a turbo that is sized to create full boost by a low RPM (say 2,000).

I thought about an H22A but the engine is around $1,000 (from ebay) + engine hoist $200 + ECU + whatever work the engine might need + whatever else comes up. Plus there's no way to increase hp if I decide its not enough. A turbo would be $300 for a kit (oil hoses, inter-cooler, etc) + $400 for turbo + $400 for hondata ECU + turning but has the potential to give me more power if I want it.

That sounds like an awful idea... A turbo kit for $300? And you expect to get new parts? Might as well just drain your oil and rev your engine until it blows. Save yourself some money.

A turbo that will reach full boost by 2000 RPM will be like a blowtorch to your engine. Your pistons would last about 3 days, if driven carefully.

You would also need larger injectors, and upgraded fuel pump, a better clutch (stock clutch won't hold even modest turbo torque for long)...

If you want any reliability whatsoever, you're looking at $3000 minimum to do a proper H22A swap. I'd be amazed if you could build a worthwhile turbo setup for less than that.
If this is a car you rely on for work, school, or transporting your family... I advise you to abandon any turbo plans now. If it's a toy that you can afford to blow up, have a ball... but the more corners you cut, the more likely it's going to happen.

$300 ebay turbo kit = new F22B2..how much will that cost? That thing is a turd anyway f/i or n/a
Buy an F20B DOHC VTEC, theyre cheap because theyre not yet a fad, a couple hundred for an OBD conversion and you have something reliable that will give plenty of shits n giggles, besides the conversion all youd need is a chipped ecu with a good basemap..then if you want to go boost, all youll need is a header and forged pistons and you wont have the FRM headaches like with all the other DOHC VTEC blocks. You dont need a cherry picker, I removed the F and installed an H w/o one thru the bottom with a floor jack and some wood, by myself for the whole ordeal.

F22B2 can make plenty of power with a turbo, with proper forged internals. When going boost, there's never any need to swap. That money is better spent on internals.

F20B is a HUGE fad right now. It's what all the kiddies want "because ev'one haz a H!" It's inferior to the H22A in every way. High, narrow powerband. Open deck iron sleeves (as opposed to the earlier H22A's closed deck), smaller valves (1mm smaller than the H22A), parts not available in the US, and doing the OBD conversion and obtaining a proper ECU pretty much evens out the cost difference between the F20B and H22A.
Not to mention the fact that the 200ps version and the 180ps version are 100% indistinguishable from each other, so even when buying from a reputable reseller, you run the risk of getting the wrong one.
FRM sleeves are stronger, lighter, and better at dissipating heat than iron. The iron sleeves found in stock blocks are not some factory equivalent to something beefy, such as from Darton or Golden Eagle.

[Grumpys93]

you Need to do more research. Might as well put nitrous on it. It's cheaper and gives you same result(ish) and will do the same damage as a cheap turbo set up. These guys are trying to give you good advice. If your looking for a little power gain plus reliability h22. You can easily swap an h22 in and tuned for under $2000

[illinois_erik]

F20B is a HUGE fad right now. It's what all the kiddies want "because ev'one haz a H!" It's inferior to the H22A in every way.
Must not be that huge you can still pick up a longblock for 400 bucks. I wouldnt say its inferior its just another flavor. Chocolate or vanilla is still icecream, still gives you a brain freeze


High, narrow powerband. Open deck iron sleeves (as opposed to the earlier H22A's closed deck), smaller valves (1mm smaller than the H22A),
The closed deck was superseded by open deck for cooling reasons thats why OBD2 and later H22A's became open deck, smaller valves due to the smaller displacement and higher revs. Moderate boost open or closed deck really doesnt matter, the F22B2 is open deck so whatever that point is, would still be an "issue" which there really isnt with an amateur setup

parts not available in the US, and doing the OBD conversion and obtaining a proper ECU pretty much evens out the cost difference between the F20B and H22A.

Parts can still be found unless one is a complete wanker and probably wouldnt already be doing a swap, OBD conversion is a minimal inconvenience, "proper" ecu is nothing more then a chipped p28 with an easily acquired f20b basemap bin file.

Not to mention the fact that the 200ps version and the 180ps version are 100% indistinguishable from each other, so even when buying from a reputable reseller, you run the risk of getting the wrong one.

Theyre both the same engines 11:1 cr, the 20HP difference comes from the auto vs manual ecu tune.

FRM sleeves are stronger, lighter, and better at dissipating heat than iron. The iron sleeves found in stock blocks are not some factory equivalent to something beefy, such as from Darton or Golden Eagle.

The whole argument of FRM vs iron cylinders is youre not confined to one expensive brand of frm compatible forged pistons, you can get run of the mill forged pistons and be done with it. Most people who got sleeved at least in the past, was the absence of aftermarket frm pistons or making big horsepower which would negate keeping the stock cylinders iron or frm anyway. frm in stock form is great, other then that its brittle and takes a lot of expertise to prepare it for an engine rebuild. no one ever compared stock iron cylinders to aftermarket lol?

[JDMef9]

My car
https://youtu.be/FNCDVLNqj8U
Stock motor top to bottom on 17psi Garrett 57 trim .48ar turbo, spools quick. Also my whole turbo kit installed and tuned cost me around $3500 ish. I pieced together the kit myself.

[bournetc]

Thanks for all the information guys, I had seen turbos for $700 that were 300-500hp and incorrectly assumed that it would be cheaper for lower hp turbos. Do you guys have any suggestions on good guides for doing the H22 swap?

[deevergote]

you Need to do more research. Might as well put nitrous on it. It's cheaper and gives you same result(ish) and will do the same damage as a cheap turbo set up. These guys are trying to give you good advice. If your looking for a little power gain plus reliability h22. You can easily swap an h22 in and tuned for under $2000

I'd say that a 50 shot of nitrous, used sparingly, would actually be far safer than turbo. It would only be an occasional thing, so while it may be hard on the engine when used, it would only be used occasionally, whereas turbo can't be turned on and off (though a larger turbo can be driven essentially out of boost...)

F20B is a HUGE fad right now. It's what all the kiddies want "because ev'one haz a H!" It's inferior to the H22A in every way.
Must not be that huge you can still pick up a longblock for 400 bucks. I wouldnt say its inferior its just another flavor. Chocolate or vanilla is still icecream, still gives you a brain freeze
The numbers show that it is inferior. And I wouldn't trust a $400 long block. Especially for an engine that contains parts that can't be purchased in the US.

High, narrow powerband. Open deck iron sleeves (as opposed to the earlier H22A's closed deck), smaller valves (1mm smaller than the H22A),
The closed deck was superseded by open deck for cooling reasons thats why OBD2 and later H22A's became open deck, smaller valves due to the smaller displacement and higher revs. Moderate boost open or closed deck really doesnt matter, the F22B2 is open deck so whatever that point is, would still be an "issue" which there really isnt with an amateur setup
But if the argument for the F20B is the "stronger" iron sleeves, my argument is for the stronger closed deck design. If it's a moot point, it is such in both cases.

parts not available in the US, and doing the OBD conversion and obtaining a proper ECU pretty much evens out the cost difference between the F20B and H22A.

Parts can still be found unless one is a complete wanker and probably wouldnt already be doing a swap, OBD conversion is a minimal inconvenience, "proper" ecu is nothing more then a chipped p28 with an easily acquired f20b basemap bin file.
And for a total noob? How much do you think someone who isn't immersed in the scene going to find a distributor, injectors, and ECU for? It'll be a few hundred bucks. Not to mention the fact that the P28 with a random basemap may or may not be done correctly. The H22A has a factory P13 or P0F that can be used. Done right, for the engine as intended, by Honda.

Not to mention the fact that the 200ps version and the 180ps version are 100% indistinguishable from each other, so even when buying from a reputable reseller, you run the risk of getting the wrong one.

Theyre both the same engines 11:1 cr, the 20HP difference comes from the auto vs manual ecu tune.
False. The camshafts are quite different. The manual version has camshafts that are equivalent to the H22A Type S. The automatic version has base H22A camshafts. Wanna fix that? Type S cams are 500 bux. Plus, how would he know? Is he going to hit dyno?
Also, the F20B needs the compression ratio, intake manifold and camshafts of a 220hp H22A to make 200hp. Over a shorter RPM range. Higher in the RPM range, making it less practical (though arguably more fun)


FRM sleeves are stronger, lighter, and better at dissipating heat than iron. The iron sleeves found in stock blocks are not some factory equivalent to something beefy, such as from Darton or Golden Eagle.

The whole argument of FRM vs iron cylinders is youre not confined to one expensive brand of frm compatible forged pistons, you can get run of the mill forged pistons and be done with it. Most people who got sleeved at least in the past, was the absence of aftermarket frm pistons or making big horsepower which would negate keeping the stock cylinders iron or frm anyway. frm in stock form is great, other then that its brittle and takes a lot of expertise to prepare it for an engine rebuild. no one ever compared stock iron cylinders to aftermarket lol?
The comparison is usually there. "Stock iron sleeves! Good for boost!"
In this particular case, boosting the H22A was not suggested. Since the OP is looking for a modest power increase, a bone-stock H22A would suffice. If turbo were to happen, yes, you're stuck with Mahle pistons (POSSIBLY Cosworth and JUN as well... though both companies failed to respond to my inquiry.) Still, Mahle is a good company, and they can make compatible pistons to spec... so what does it matter if the one company you're stuck with offers a competitive price, acceptable quality, and compatible materials?

Thank you, at least, for not using the "It was made by Honda as a racing engine!" argument... which is only 1/3 true. Yes, it was made for racing (1), but it was made specifically for racing in a restricted class... so Honda was essentially just doing the best with what they had to work with (2), also, it was made to be more accessible to buyers that didn't want to pay higher taxes on a larger displacement engine. 2.0L is cheaper to own in Japan than 2.2L (3)

Thanks for all the information guys, I had seen turbos for $700 that were 300-500hp and incorrectly assumed that it would be cheaper for lower hp turbos. Do you guys have any suggestions on good guides for doing the H22 swap?

The Swaps section of this forum would be a good place to start.
Read a bit in the forced induction section as well. It seems you have quite a bit to learn about turbo. It would be wise to learn before spending your money. The alternative is most definitely the hard (and expensive) way.

[bournetc]

So one thing I'm still having a hard time figuring out about turbo builds is: when do you build up the engine? Some people say you don't need to do any internals up to 7psi others say you need forged pistons for any boost but don't need to bother with rods while still others say you need to rebuild everything if you do any boost.

[deevergote]

Anybody that says "up to 7psi" doesn't know what they're talking about, as 7psi from a small turbo is VERY different from 7psi from a large turbo. It's like saying "just the tip", and not specifying if it's from Verne Troyer or Andre the Giant!

Stock cast aluminum pistons, especially 25 year old stock cast aluminum pistons, are not designed for turbo use. They are not designed for the heat or the pressure. The ring lands break, usually very quickly. Some people get away with it for a while. Some people manage to destroy their engine in a matter of weeks. From what I've been able to tell, a careful ECU tune is no guarantee that the pistons will survive (that's another thing people like to say... "it's all in the tune"... as if an ECU can somehow change metallurgy)

If you want boost, any boost at all, and you actually want it to be reliable... you need forged pistons.
Now, rods are not as important. Forged rods are essential for a high-revving N/A setup, but for a low boost application, they are not absolutely necessary. However, the rods in your engine ARE 25 years old, so reusing them may not be the greatest idea. Furthermore, aftermarket forged pistons almost all use floating wrist pins. Stock stuff uses pressed wrist pins. The stock rods can be used, but they must be altered to accommodate the floating pins. It is just easier and safer to use compatible aftermarket rods.

See what I mean by "you have a lot to learn"? 90% of what I know, I've learned on the pages of this forum.

[aventari]

It's all been said, but to reiterate, the words "saving money" and "turbo" don't belong anywhere near each other.