Max RPM for EUDM F22A, anyone?

[CB7Denmark]

Who knows about this?


My Bisi Stage 2 cam and valvespring will soon arrive, along with the header that im gonna pick up tomorrow.

I plan on giving it a tune when i install the Cam (Will i even be able to d.d without a tune?? If yes, i will install right away ), but the tune will most likely extendt the RPM range a little (The ECU tune that is).

What are the safe limit?

Originally, i wasnt planning on moving the cut off, just leaving it at 6.8k rpm, which i still want the most, but my friend want me to, be able to rev it till 7.5k rpm, but i remember reading something about some oil injectors missing in the buttom end, and therefor does not allow for higher RPM than stock, due to the fact that it is not lubed properly at high rpm.


Can anyone clarify this for me?

Accorn???

[cyanide]

I highly doubt a Bisi stage 2 cam will allow you to use your car daily without a tune. It will run, but badly, and it isn't sensible to rev it beyond about 4000 RPM. And the idle will be very lopey, partly due to the increased overlap (which can be dialed out with adjustable cam gears) and partly due the ignition timing not being adjusted for the changed cam.

I think revving it to 7500 rpm will not be an issue. One of the reasons being you upgrading the valvesprings, another being that the oil squirters aren't really essential for such a small jump in rev limit. Assuming you have healthy oil pressure, the stock bottom end should be able to take it. You can play with the oil grades to bump up the oil pressure a bit. You will lose a couple of horsepower but since this doesn't seem like a race motor, those couple of less horses won't really matter a lot at the end of the day.

[CB7Denmark]

I highly doubt a Bisi stage 2 cam will allow you to use your car daily without a tune. It will run, but badly, and it isn't sensible to rev it beyond about 4000 RPM. And the idle will be very lopey, partly due to the increased overlap (which can be dialed out with adjustable cam gears) and partly due the ignition timing not being adjusted for the changed cam.

I think revving it to 7500 rpm will not be an issue. One of the reasons being you upgrading the valvesprings, another being that the oil squirters aren't really essential for such a small jump in rev limit. Assuming you have healthy oil pressure, the stock bottom end should be able to take it. You can play with the oil grades to bump up the oil pressure a bit. You will lose a couple of horsepower but since this doesn't seem like a race motor, those couple of less horses won't really matter a lot at the end of the day.

Bisi says states on his website that no ecu tune is needed until Stage 3 and upwards. And the idle is mild lope on the stage 2..

I'm wondering if anyone has changed to stage 2 without ecu tune?

But its gonna take a month or so after receiving the cam before i can have it tuned, was just wondering if could run that month without damage or problems.

I'm building for street and D.D. Its quite popular to race random people here in Denmark, so my goal is a sleeper with 200 at the crank, at least.

H22A Plenun and T.B to make use of the extra duration.
DC Sports header.
Bisi Stage 2 + valve springs.
and a ECU tune.
Stock Exhaust from cat for now, might go for magnaflow.
Stock running 9.8 CR, so that will be fine for now.
I expect hp to be in the 180 range with this build, maybe adding a bisi header for the last power some time in the future.

[Joey GT-R]

Bisi says states on his website that no ecu tune is needed until Stage 3 and upwards. And the idle is mild lope on the stage 2..

You have a link to such a statement? I have a feeling you are confusing his words, but before I delve further into that comment, I will allow you to explain first.

[CB7Denmark]

You have a link to such a statement? I have a feeling you are confusing his words, but before I delve further into that comment, I will allow you to explain first.

http://bisimoto.com/store/index.php?...x&cPath=5_9_66

The list of different stages of grinds, at Stage 2.4 (to be honest you always need a tune for turbos) he states (Or whom ever wrote it) that a ECU tune is needed, and this statement continues for the rest of the stages, therefor i would assume you could run a stage 1 and 2 grind without a tune, BUT they will ofcause run better after a tune. I just mean that it is - possible - to run it without a tune..

Am i wrong? I'm no expert at camshafts, only basic "hobby" knowledge for the details.

[Joey GT-R]

http://bisimoto.com/store/index.php?...x&cPath=5_9_66

The list of different stages of grinds, at Stage 2.4 (to be honest you always need a tune for turbos) he states (Or whom ever wrote it) that a ECU tune is needed, and this statement continues for the rest of the stages, therefor i would assume you could run a stage 1 and 2 grind without a tune, BUT they will ofcause run better after a tune. I just mean that it is - possible - to run it without a tune..

Am i wrong? I'm no expert at camshafts, only basic "hobby" knowledge for the details.

Engine Management System (EMS) required

I figured as such. Bisi is recommending a full standalone Engine Management System or EMS for short. Often times people confuse EMS and ECU as being the same terms but this is not so.

As a caveat, do people run the more aggressive cams with an ECU tune? Of course, but the tuner who does the calibrations has the required skills to do so. However an EMS due to the sheer advantage in functionality generally will always bring out the best potential benefits.

[CB7Denmark]

I figured as such. Bisi is recommending a full standalone Engine Management System or EMS for short. Often times people confuse EMS and ECU as being the same terms but this is not so.

As a caveat, do people run the more aggressive cams with an ECU tune? Of course, but the tuner who does the calibrations has the required skills to do so. However an EMS due to the sheer advantage in functionality generally will always bring out the best potential benefits.

aaaaaah, ofcause!! Thank you very much for clarifying this for me

So, basicly, the car would be driveable, but it wouldnt run -great- (Thoough gains will be there?!) and nor would it be healthy for the engine?

Okay, so maybe i should wait with installing the cam till i can have it dyno tuned, maybe also get the retainers as this car is my daily driver and very important to me.

[Joey GT-R]

As cyanide said, I wouldn't go past 4000 rpm on the engine without a tuner. Preferably keep it under 3500 rpm if you ask me. Once you can have the engine tuned do what you like. The car will run ok, but not all that great.

[CB7Denmark]

As cyanide said, I wouldn't go past 4000 rpm on the engine without a tuner. Preferably keep it under 3500 rpm if you ask me. Once you can have the engine tuned do what you like. The car will run ok, but not all that great.

Okay, thanks alot for your time Joey..


Not being able to rev past 3.5 - 4k is no fun at all, maybe i should wait after all till i can get it tuned somewhere late july.

Having a dynotune is actually the most expensive part in my build lol..

Thanks for your help, this also goes for Cyanide

I'm gonna make a proper build thread in the members section, now that im not a "Beginner" anymore lol, when i get all the parts ill start up and let you guys know how the EUDM A3 handles these mods..

I'm very impressed by Accorns build even before he got hes F23 bottom end. I'm kinda hoping for some of the same figures as the A3 head flows much better than USDM heads, it produces 150hp stock, which comes from better flow, higher comp, and a better exhaust system..

I really can't wait to floor this bastard with all the new mods

[gloryaccordy]

http://bisimoto.com/store/index.php?...x&cPath=5_9_66

The list of different stages of grinds, at Stage 2.4 (to be honest you always need a tune for turbos) he states (Or whom ever wrote it) that a ECU tune is needed, and this statement continues for the rest of the stages, therefor i would assume you could run a stage 1 and 2 grind without a tune, BUT they will ofcause run better after a tune. I just mean that it is - possible - to run it without a tune..

Am i wrong? I'm no expert at camshafts, only basic "hobby" knowledge for the details.

Given Bisi's history I wouldn't trust such a statement

Or his products at all, period.

This is a dude who made a video laughing at customers complaining about his headers' shitty welds.

[cyanide]

As cyanide said, I wouldn't go past 4000 rpm on the engine without a tuner. Preferably keep it under 3500 rpm if you ask me. Once you can have the engine tuned do what you like. The car will run ok, but not all that great.

^^ What he said.

Since you're using a 'bigger' cam, you need more fuel at the very least. At low revs and low load, the ECU refers to the O2 sensor input and adjusts fuel accordingly, to an extent (defined by the ECU's short/long term fuel trims and other parameters).

Once you cross a certain point of engine-load(MAP sensor for our engines)/RPM, the ECU will automatically go into open loop mode. At that point, it does not take any input from the O2 sensor and directly refers to the fuel/ignition maps on the ECU, plus applying corrections based on various parameters like coolant temps, IATs and other sensors.

These fuel maps are for your stock cam and consequently, the required amount of fuel for the stock lift and duration. For a bigger cam, the stock maps will end up running the engine leaner than recommended causing anything from slight pinging/detonation to a holed piston.

PS: This post doesn't account for or go much in detail as that would take a long time to type up. But I hope you get the gist of why it's not recommended to push an untuned combination.

[turboHLS30]

I don't have a Bisi cam, but I do have a Delta 272. You may experience similar results, as to what I'm experiencing with mine. Mine isn't tuned yet, and basically has the same mods as yours, except I'm running a F20B TB, and I completely deleted the IAB's. On initial start up it doesn't like to idle, I had to tighten the throttle cable in order to get it to idle and it still barely idled. Also it is SUPER rich idling, which may also be a contributing factor to why it won't idle. Once it warms up it idles well aside from the lope lol It's safe to drive it untuned until you can get to a tuner, just be careful with it. MAKE SURE YOU ADJUST YOUR VALVES WHEN YOU PUT THE CAM IN! lol Have fun, looking forward to seeing how she turns out!

[wagon-r]

I highly doubt a Bisi stage 2 cam will allow you to use your car daily without a tune. It will run, but badly, and it isn't sensible to rev it beyond about 4000 RPM. And the idle will be very lopey, partly due to the increased overlap (which can be dialed out with adjustable cam gears)

Unless the EUDM F22A has DOHC, you won't be able to dial out the lopey idle with adjustable cam gears. The US F22A's have a SOHC - all you can do is change the timing when both intake and exhaust open and close, you can't change the overlap.

[cyanide]

My bad, assumed these were DOHC.

One small trick you can do if you simply can't afford to tune right now, but still want to put in your new cam is to increase the valve lash a tiny bit. That effectively reduces lift and duration until you can pony up the money to get it tuned. It will be a bit noisy though. Assuming stock lash of 0.007" and 0.009", run it at 0.012 and 0.015 or thereabouts. Adjust until you find the sweet spot.

[CB7Denmark]

My bad, assumed these were DOHC.

One small trick you can do if you simply can't afford to tune right now, but still want to put in your new cam is to increase the valve lash a tiny bit. That effectively reduces lift and duration until you can pony up the money to get it tuned. It will be a bit noisy though.

To all: Thanks for all the great responses! I've noted them all!


By increasing the lash, you mean adjusting the valves right? Thats the only thing i can think off, that would reduce lift. And that would tick alot and increase wear. (Sorry for my poor english, i just need to be 100% sure)

Before i get to have it tuned, i need to change the timing belt, clutch+, and some sealings, and some other stuff so i have a completely maintained engine, and that will cost me about 2k$ so yeah, thats like 50% of my paycheck, so i need to wait till july.

I'm just eager to have this project started up, i got all the stuff and resources, its just the waiting time that is killing my patience

ALSO: Why would you guys delete the IAB's? They give you lowend power/torque??

I wanna kill NOW!

I already got some races in my head that im gonna win.
Prelude 2.2 VTI-S, Volvo 850 T5-R (Turbo granny car), BMW 740i V8 (But heavy as shit, tho i dont think i'm gonna win this one, 0-60 in 6.6)