1990 Accord LX 4AT valves tick louder after adjustments.

[Bad_dude]

Well guys, I followed the instructions as on this link:
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread...ght=set+timing

I torque the jam nuts to 14 ft/lb as suggested. I use the feeler gauges, .012 for the exhaust valves, and .010 for the intake valves.
Instead of removing my upper timing cover, I use the markings on the inside cam wheel which can be seen once the valve cover is removed.
I also use the 19mm wrench to turn the power steering pulley to get the crank to turn. I took out the spark plugs and put the gear into neutral to turn easier.

I took my time and did the job and also replaced my valve cover gasket as well.

I did this in the morning before the car was driven at all.

Before the adjustments, I checked the clearance and all of the exhaust valves were too tight and I had to loosen the jam nuts to adjust to .012. I think all of the intake were within specs but I adjusted them again to make sure they are all the same.

The PROBLEM:
When everything is done, I started the car and valves tick much louder than before. I did the valve adjustments since the previous owner did it over 40k miles ago but the valves were not ticking or barely heard.
I did not let the engine warm up as I was afraid it might damage the engine. I wanted to get more info as to why this is. Thus the valves ticking were much louder when the engine was cold. Never warm up yet after the adjustments.

What do you think would cause this problem? Would loosen of the exhaust valves cause the ticking to be louder? I thought valve adjustments to specs suppose to quiet them down?
The jam nuts were 10mm and I torque them to 14 ft/lb would that be too tight thus causing the louder ticking?

Any help with your experience would be much appreciated.

[batever]

Ticking is caused by the cam lobes having too much space between them and the valve stems, so the cam lobe impacts the valve stem later in the turn of the crankshaft and with more impact. Causing "ticking".

My Haynes says to do this adjustment with the engine cold. so that's ok. Valve stems at 500f to 660F will expand and close the distance to the cam lobes sooner compared to room temperature and so will the camshaft lobes but the specs are supposed to take that into account.

Also, are the feeler gauge measurements you gave in inches or in cm?

my haynes gives (1990) intake: 0.0009 to 0.0019 inch {<<<EDIT: THIS IS WRONG}

exhaust 0.021 to 0.0031 inch {<<<EDIT: THIS IS WRONG}


Also, the feeler gauges should give light drag or contact when you put them through. Perhaps you adjusted the clearances too loose by not adjusting with too little drag on the feeler gauges. Or, perhaps you have really worn cam lobes, thus increasing the effective distance between the valve stems and the cam lobes.

More likely: did you remeasure the clearances after tightening the jam nuts down? Often when tightening the jam nuts you affect the clearances, making them larger, which would cause the ticking. So test the clearances "before and after".

[Bad_dude]

Ticking is caused by the cam lobes having too much space between them and the valve stems, so the cam lobe impacts the valve stem later in the turn of the crankshaft and with more impact. Causing "ticking".

My Haynes says to do this adjustment with the engine cold. so that's ok. Valve stems at 500f to 660F will expand and close the distance to the cam lobes sooner compared to room temperature and so will the camshaft lobes but the specs are supposed to take that into account.

Also, are the feeler gauge measurements you gave in inches or in cm?

my haynes gives (1990) intake: 0.0009 to 0.0019 inch

exhaust 0.021 to 0.0031 inch


Also, the feeler gauges should give light drag or contact when you put them through. Perhaps you adjusted the clearances too loose by not adjusting with too little drag on the feeler gauges. Or, perhaps you have really worn cam lobes, thus increasing the effective distance between the valve stems and the cam lobes.

More likely: did you remeasure the clearances after tightening the jam nuts down? Often when tightening the jam nuts you affect the clearances, making them larger, which would cause the ticking. So test the clearances "before and after".

The feeler gauges I am using are:
Exhaust: 0.30mm or .012 in
Intake: 0.25mm or .010 in
The measurement you gotten from Haynes seems tight. The sticker under my car and the pdf manual I got gives: Intake 0.26+/-0.02mm (0.010+/-0.01in.); Exhaust: 0.03+/-0.02mm (0.012+/-0.01in.)
Perhaps I should try the tighter size for the adjustments.

Which are what the links said to use also my manual said the same thing.
Well, the car only has 136k miles on it. It's well maintain by the previous owner and I.
I check for clearance, then adjust, then tighten the nut, then torque to 14 ft/lb. After all the valves are adjusted, I turned the crank one full rotation, stopping every 1/4 to check for clearance on each valve again.
What else could be wrong.

Could it be that the exhaust valves were too tight before thus now within specs which are more loose thus the ticking?
I would imagine adjusting the valves to specs would get rid of the ticking in this case it brings back the ticking.

Thanks.

[batever]

The feeler gauges I am using are:
Exhaust: 0.30mm or .012 in
Intake: 0.25mm or .010 in

Which are what the links said to use also my manual said the same thing.
Well, the car only has 136k miles on it.{ ...}
Could it be that the exhaust valves were too tight before thus now within specs which are more loose thus the ticking?
I would imagine adjusting the valves to specs would get rid of the ticking in this case it brings back the ticking.

Thanks.

Sorry, I listed the wrong specs, yours are right.

It's possible that the camshaft lobes are worn, thus creating more inherent space between the camshaft lobe at every point along the camshaft's rotation.

If they were adjusted too close for a long period then it's possible that would lead to more lobe wear and thus the current ticking. However, haveing them adjusted too tight would be very quiet because of where the cam lobe would impact the top of the valve stem. If it was very very much too close then the valves might not evershut completely and you could theoretically and actually get burned valve seats.

A leakdown test would show this.

however, if you're getting MPGs around 30 mpg I doubt that's the case.

A simpler and less catastrophic explanation would be your feeler gauge technique could be off--if the amount of drag wasn't right (too light) then the gap would end up being larger than you wanted. Or--or your feeler gauges worn?

A final note: the fact that it is ticking is relative to what you are used to and might not be bad. A small amount of ticking would be somewhat normal on the engine.

I don't have more to say at this point. Best to wait for more responses as I'm not that experienced in this matter.

[blazedealh91]

mine did this as well
it ticked for a little wile after it stope 1 week after i did it and all good now
i would go and double check them then change your oil
try to post a video of what it sounds like

[Bad_dude]

mine did this as well
it ticked for a little wile after it stope 1 week after i did it and all good now
i would go and double check them then change your oil
try to post a video of what it sounds like

Really. Do I need to change the oil? It was changed less than 2000 miles ago. So your car tick louder after adjustments and then it goes away after one week? Hmm!! Did you change your oil right after?

Thanks,

[Bad_dude]

Sorry, I listed the wrong specs, yours are right.

It's possible that the camshaft lobes are worn, thus creating more inherent space between the camshaft lobe at every point along the camshaft's rotation.

If they were adjusted too close for a long period then it's possible that would lead to more lobe wear and thus the current ticking. However, haveing them adjusted too tight would be very quiet because of where the cam lobe would impact the top of the valve stem. If it was very very much too close then the valves might not evershut completely and you could theoretically and actually get burned valve seats.

A leakdown test would show this.

however, if you're getting MPGs around 30 mpg I doubt that's the case.

A simpler and less catastrophic explanation would be your feeler gauge technique could be off--if the amount of drag wasn't right (too light) then the gap would end up being larger than you wanted. Or--or your feeler gauges worn?

A final note: the fact that it is ticking is relative to what you are used to and might not be bad. A small amount of ticking would be somewhat normal on the engine.

I don't have more to say at this point. Best to wait for more responses as I'm not that experienced in this matter.

If I remember correctly, this car was advertised to get around 24 mpg new. Before the valve adjustments, I was getting about that. I will probably check the valve clearance again tomorrow and leave it ticking for a week. Would the ticking be cause by all of the oil being on the bottom or lack of lubrication before warming up?
Could the ticking cause engine damage?

Thanks.

[batever]

Keep in mind that when you use the gauges you need to pull them through "flat" on the very top of the dome of the valve stem. If you pull them through angled and get a light drag then that equates to little or no contact when pulling them through straight and flat, which would add some distance to the expected setting and result in louder ticking.

I don't see why you would need to change your oil just because of this procedure. I also don't know why ticking would get less after a week although I'm not going to say anyone is being inaccurate here, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Also, SOME ticking is expected because the valve stems are not and should not be in constant contact with the cam lobes.

If you have a real question about the noise level this I would bring it to a mechanic or someone experienced with Hondas and ask how it sounds to them.

it may very well be that you've had them adjusted too tight before and now they are ok. It will tick more at startup (engine is cold and metal hasn't expanded and lengthened) and less after warmup).

Unless the sound is godawful bad then let the engine warm up and see how it changes.

Also, make double damn sure your feeler gauges are correct and in the correct system of measurement. And that you are pulling the feeler gauges through flat across the dome of the valve stem top, thus measuring the geometrically smallest distance between it and the rocker arm.

[AaronRVegas]

yeah when i did this i had the valvetrain slightly misaligned and overtorqued the bolts on the valvetrain and ended up snapping the bolts holding the valvetrain down. at very low torque settings your torque wrench should not snap it should just barely nudge over. you will know the differnce if you redo this.

if you did the torquing correctly maybe you had the pistons at TDC on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke.

also if you are torquing the valve lash nuts to 14 ft/lb idk where you came up with that number. i read my haynes 3 times and the DIY on this site about 14 times and never came across that number.

after i got new bolts and redid the valve train torquing and rechecked my valve clearances it was gravy. the car ran great after that.

it is possible your cam is overly worn but i doubt it with so few miles on your vehicle. can you post pictures of this.

oh another thing to check is make sure your valvetrain arms(idk the tech term) the part that actually pushes down the spring is squarely over top of the spring. meaning make sure the valve train did not loosen up any on you while out of the . ( for the record i did this while changing upper and lower spark plug tube seals so if you did not remove the valve train disregard this part)


edit: bat is right about using the feeler guage. it should be parrallel to the top of the spring seat that gets pushed down. i would suggest getting the ones at a 45 degree angle if you dont have them. they were pretty easy to use.

as far as the .10 and .12 for the feeler guages that is in inches and supposed to be measured in inches. as far as making more noise on start up idk what he is talking about there. the only time mine ever made noises was when my spring was misaligned and it made a loud pop when teh spring went from fully compressed to no pressure on it at all.

[batever]

If I remember correctly, this car was advertised to get around 24 mpg new. Before the valve adjustments, I was getting about that. I will probably check the valve clearance again tomorrow and leave it ticking for a week. Would the ticking be cause by all of the oil being on the bottom or lack of lubrication before warming up?
Could the ticking cause engine damage?

Thanks.

24 mpg is kind of low unless maybe you have an auto tranny.

lack of oil in the top end will increase wear on the camlobes and would make the ticking louder too so yeah. It also has to do with larger cold clearances than hot but that's a smaller factor I guess.

Theoretically, the only kind of engine damage the ticking itself would cause is damage to the tops of the valve stems and excessive wear on the cam lobes down near the impact point on their profile where the valve stems make first contact. If the ticking also involved the valves not opening up soon enough then there could be valve seat damage.

I don't think your adjustments are so far out as all that though, even though I haven't heard it.

do you have "grooves" on the cam lobes? that would explain things because the groove would be the actual place the valve stem contacts, but your feeler gauge would be measuring the shoulder of the groove instead. So your 0.10 inch measurement might really be 0.12 from the point of view of the actual valve stem-cam lobe dynamics and your 0.12 be 0.14 for example.


AaronRvegas is right about using the angled feeler gauges, those are much easier to use on this engine to keep the feeler gauge perpendicular/orthogonal to the valve stem top.

[Bad_dude]

if you did the torquing correctly maybe you had the pistons at TDC on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke.

What is the difference? I turn the pulley looking from the inside with the valve cover off, the arrow pointing up and the 2 notches in the back and front of the pulley. So that is at cylinder 1. I can also check by moving the valves and the only ones that move are on number 1. Look at the link below, there's a video on this. Also the torque setting at 14ft/lb is also from the DIY on this link.
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread...ght=set+timing
Also, could you check which cylinder it's by looking at the cam lobe with the lobe being 180 degree away from the rocker arm?

What torque settings are you using?
I'll check the cam lobes tomorrow.

Thanks.

[Bad_dude]

I have a question regarding turning the crank pulley. Instead I use the power steering pulley. So it suggested to turn the crank pulley counter clockwise which is to the left which is to turn the ratchet toward the front of the car. Assuming the power steering pulley turns in the same direction as the main pulley. So if I turn the PS pulley toward the front of the car, would means counter clockwise and to the left right?

Thanks.

[AaronRVegas]

you need to be at TDC for the compression stroke because if you are not the cam i believe will be spun the wrong way putting pressure on the valve springs. to the best of my knowledge when any piston is at TDC that means there should not be any pressure on the valves at all.

idk about how you check for P1 at TDC but there is a mark on the flywheel you can use. if that does not exist you can put a straw in the cylinder after removing the spark plug and hand crank it around until you feel comfortable with knowing it as at TDC. the marks on the cam are supposed to work but idk. the mark on the flywheel is definitely the most accurate though.

then after you find TDC for P1 finding TDC for the other pistons is a matter of turning the crankshaft a specific interval.

as far as that DIY goes i have not looked at it and i dont really have time to tonight. i will check it out tomorrow and tell you what i gather from it.

when i tightened my valve lash nuts i just held the screw witha flat head and used a combo wrench to snug down the nut. i did not use a torque wrench on the valve rockers at all.

[batever]

What is the difference? I turn the pulley looking from the inside with the valve cover off, the arrow pointing up and the 2 notches in the back and front of the pulley. So that is at cylinder 1. I can also check by moving the valves and the only ones that move are on number 1. Look at the link below, there's a video on this. Also the torque setting at 14ft/lb is also from the DIY on this link.
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread...ght=set+timing
Also, could you check which cylinder it's by looking at the cam lobe with the lobe being 180 degree away from the rocker arm?

What torque settings are you using?
I'll check the cam lobes tomorrow.

Thanks.

Without thinking on it hard, there is a difference. I'm not going to sit here and think it through in detail (because I'm feeling lazy!) , but I'm pretty sure it will make a difference.

It's a four cycle engine which means that the each piston moves (intake stroke) down, up, then (exhaust stroke) down, and up for each combustion cycle in each of the four cylinders. The intake and exhaust valves only open at specific times in this cycle. If you measured it at the wrong place and thought it was "tight" then loosened it to what you thought was spec, then later on in the cycle when it really opened up it would be much much larger of an opening than spec. And make a major ticking noise.

Not saying that's what you did but just pointing out a possibility.

[AaronRVegas]

when turning the crank pulley put your wratchet on the loosen setting. and i think its a 21mm or 19mm nut. it is under the driver side wheel well. you cant miss it. when you are rotating the crank it will be towards the cab of the vehicle not the head lights.