Vtec Vs. Non Vtec

[gloryaccordy]

I think all that Wes was saying was that he prefers the earlier torque delivery of a non-VTEC motor vs the waiting sensation of a stock VTEC motor. On a relatively uncorked F22A torque comes on about 2.5-3K, and can stay all the way to fuel cut if you have the right mods; and you don't even need a tune for that. With an I/H/E H22A, or any DOHC VTEC motor, it seems like you're waiting, waiting, waiting... at least those are my experiences.

The thread is about personal preference. Maybe Wes doesn't care about 'streetability' as he won't be doing builds for the street. He's well within his right. I personally prefer the drop in and go easiness of something like an H22A vs a full out build, even though to me tapping the potential of an F22A is a much more interesting prospect. You can't argue that, Scott

[bcjammerx]

No it isn't. The bigger cam lobes that are in effect in VTEC do though. and it's only a 20 -40 hp jump. but who's counting?

more compression is what I was getting at for one...up the compression on the f22ax to match the h22's compression and the power will just about match the h22, it's torque curve will be similar to. Well...the torque curves of those who'v done that do anyway.

Sure the h22ax with vtec still has more power than an f22ax with upped compression only, but they are very close. I wouldn't dare say vtec doesn't significantly do anything as I'd be dead wrong...well when talking about the h22ax vtec...other vtec heads that's another story.

my point...restated...again...vtec helps, but it ain't all there is to it. If you look at the engines as a whole, you can get to (and surpass) the h22a stock hp with an f22ax engine and by simply matching the h22a's construction save for adding a vtec head...add some port work and you'll surpass the h22a's stock power rating. Adding a vtec head CAN be a good thing, but for all the extra work you have to ask...IS it really that much of a gain? Especially once you add a different cam to the f22a engine with upped compression? Anyway I'm rambling.

[gloryaccordy]

Yea but with the H22A/F20B ur already starting out 60+ HP ahead

And if u put the same $$$ into a DOHC VTEC motor you'll be that much further ahead

[CB7 Sleeper]

you would spend more because you would have to buy the vtec motor to put in, therefore, less money for mods. if you put the amount of money into an f22a that you would use to do an h22a swap, you could probably have a really decent turbo setup that would far surpass the power of the h22a. just my .02. something to think about

shoot, you couldve picked up the bisi header for 6 hundos and already been halfway there, if you prefer N/A

[gloryaccordy]

To do a proper rebuild on an F22A would cost a lot. If you're just talkin an H22 motor + ECU, you'd spend half of that on new pistons + rings and all that. Then unless u have machine shop access u gotta get cylinders honed. If u go turbo u gotta make sure ur motor is like super tip top good to go to start, and then u have to find a very competent tuner. Its way more complex than just buying the parts. I think the 200HP F22A deal for less than an H22A is a myth.

[deevergote]

so how would you go about removing this hole... id love to see an H22 where vtec hits and keeps you on the cam with that vtec "hit"

BTW amazing post

What do you mean about that? VTEC actually shouldn't "hit"... the crossover was set high for the H22 so people would feel it and buy the car. A smooth VTEC transition is optimal. There is no transition whatsoever in iVTEC. Though I do have to admit... I enjoy the "hit" and the sound that comes with the H22's VTEC crossover. My Fit's iVTEC engine doesn't offer that bit of enjoyment.

Hmmm, ok.....then tell me this, how the hell do you know that Honda wanted people to know what "vtec" really was for? Did they really tell you? And the topic of this forum was "vtec vs non-vtec" not "VTEC and its advantages over non-VTEC"

H22 without that "vtec" would be as slow as a stock f22ax.
Vtec has always been for economy use (except certain models)
You don't need vtec to make power, Im with wed3k, this thread has gone off to far, and the OP said "what we prefer" not what the advantages and disadvantages were....nor that we need to argue our intellagance over a "Honda guru".

To each his own.
And you sir, are making people get pissed off because h22 are the shit and you know why h22 are the shit, and were the fuck did you get that I'am a fan boy/hater???
And you don't need to offend no one and argue with them and "running your mouth".

owequitit's "honda guru" comment was made in response to wed3k's sig... where he calls himself the Honda Guru.

He's actually not getting pissed. He's presenting his point of view with actual evidence, not "because I like it". That is how you discuss a topic.

Learn something, so you can defend your opinion. Otherwise, you're just going to look like a dumbass fanboy... and to be quite honest with you, that's exactly how I see anyone who feels the need to voice an opinion without any knowledge to back it up!

You clearly don't know a thing on this topic... It seems that my point earlier has gone thoroughly ignored. VTEC has not "always been for economy"... VTEC has existed in Honda's performance-oriented engines since it's inception, and carried over to "economy" cars. Trust me... the NSX doesn't need to focus on fuel economy.

To do a proper rebuild on an F22A would cost a lot. If you're just talkin an H22 motor + ECU, you'd spend half of that on new pistons + rings and all that. Then unless u have machine shop access u gotta get cylinders honed. If u go turbo u gotta make sure ur motor is like super tip top good to go to start, and then u have to find a very competent tuner. Its way more complex than just buying the parts. I think the 200HP F22A deal for less than an H22A is a myth.

It's true that the H22A will start with 60+hp more than the F22A. However, the F22A has certain flow characteristics that are superior to the H22A. Depending on what the build is for, the F22A may make greater numbers.








If you want to say which is better, VTEC or non-VTEC... all ANYONE had to do was ask one simple question: "what is the engine going to be used for?"
All-out drag racing, where you launch at 4,000+ and shift well above the VTEC crossover point for the entire way down the track... yeah, there's no need for VTEC there. That's why "VTEC killer cams" exist. They are drag race cams... not street cams.
A street car... VTEC offers a very wide powerband. Yes, an H22 without the VTEC lobe would be a dead fish by 4800 RPM. That's the point. Two cam profiles, offering a drastic curve within a short RPM span... put together to allow for a wide powerband all the way up to 7500+ RPM. Your non-VTEC isn't going to do that for you. You're going to run out of steam at 6800, or you're going to enjoy your soggy bottom until 4000.
This would also go for a road-race car, as you make use of a large portion of the RPM range on such a course.

Of course, Americans only race in straight lines or circles... so peak power is all that matters, right?


Bisi doesn't drive his insight to work. 2point6 drove his H22 CB7 to work.

[jdm92_accorn]

here's the thing though, an h22 at bare minimum is an h22a1 which to the wheels is roughly 154whp and thats with 10.5:1's, factory 4/2/1 header, larger dual plane intake manifold with a 62mm throttle body, performance oriented ecu, larger intake piping, closer ratio transmission, vtec side has a massive camshaft in all perspective. and the prelude has 2.25" exhaust piping factory. sooo lets even things up a lil. give the f22 just the 10.5:1's, the h23 intake manifold and tb, prelude pipe and airbox, f22a4 header, p12 ecu, 92-96 prelude exhaust and the f22a6 camshaft and an h22 tranny. hey guess what that would be about 155whp and thats with a smaller camshaft, smaller valves, NO VTEC and more torque. i made 176whp and 162wtq for about $1100. thats modded h22 numbers. oh except more torque yet again without vtec and i can idle at 800rpms and i get 30mpg in town and 36mpg on the highway.

[deevergote]

Yes, but how does that motor respond on the street? Is your power curve as broad as the H22's?

The non-VTEC defenders are failing to realize that it's not necessarily VTEC that is responsible for the H22's power production., be it low or high. It's still the same "cam opens a valve" concept as the non-VTEC engines.

I can slap a turbo on an F22A and make more power than any VTEC engine for $600. That doesn't really go to discredit VTEC, nor does it convince me that VTEC is a bad thing.

[jdm92_accorn]

no what people fail to realize is VTEC is benefitial because it allows you to have a large camshaft profile for high end power AND a small camshaft profile for low end response. i personally like the f22a, but thats just my thing. if you want an engine to look at look at the h23vtec.it has tons of low end torque and high end hp, a powerband from 2k to 8k. that is only possible with vtec. i just want people to know the h22 is not better than the f22. besides this is not about the f22 vs the h22 its vtec vs non-vtec. simple decision vtec because you can have your cake and eat it too.

[deevergote]

Very much so.

That's the thing... I'm not attacking the F22A (in fact, if you look back a few pages, you'll see someone commented about this being the first time I've ever defended the H22A. ) Nobody is, really. The argument, at least from my end, has been focused mainly on HOW TO ARGUE YOUR POINT. Most people supporting the non-VTEC camp here seem to have absolutely no idea how to do this (jdm92_accorn excluded... you're the only one that actually makes sense...)






To further the argument for variable valve timing:
BMW's S65 (M3's V8) and S85 (M5's V10) both have the double VANOS system in place (the V8 using oil pressure, the V10 using an hydraulic system).

Toyota's 2UR-GSE, found in the Lexus IS-F, uses dual VVT-i

Nissan's VR38DETT (GT-R) uses variable valve timing on the intake side only.

The Ferrari Enzo had Variable Valve Timing.

The current LS engines from GM are also capable of variable valve timing (yes, in a pushrod engine)

[CB7 Sleeper]

Yes, but how does that motor respond on the street? Is your power curve as broad as the H22's?

The non-VTEC defenders are failing to realize that it's not necessarily VTEC that is responsible for the H22's power production., be it low or high. It's still the same "cam opens a valve" concept as the non-VTEC engines.

I can slap a turbo on an F22A and make more power than any VTEC engine for $600. That doesn't really go to discredit VTEC, nor does it convince me that VTEC is a bad thing.

Exactly
I am a Non VTEC guy however I agree with you. It seems like all the Non VTEC defenders are stating that an H22a only puts down its high numbers IN VTEC, which isn't necessarily true. What VTEC does is makes sure the motor resumes a CONSISTENT line of production all the way through the power band, unlike an F22a that is going to get "soggy" in the higher RPMs.

Point made. The guys that are arguing a point based on misinformation or with no facts to back it up are just sounding like fanboys.

If you are trying to be different, you aren't all that different after all.

[foamypirate]

I have a feeling that most of the people who say the H22 has no torque, think that because it just make so much MORE power up-top, making the bottom end *feel* weak, when in reality it isn't. It's all relative.

[CB7 Sleeper]

I have a feeling that most of the people who say the H22 has no torque, think that because it just make so much MORE power up-top, making the bottom end *feel* weak, when in reality it isn't. It's all relative.

Also true. This is why I am assuming the people attacking the torque of the H22a have no experience with the motor to compare. I have had an H22a on an F22 trans, and now I have the F22a (but not for long) and I can tell you, the H22a definitely has more pull, but when you are anticipating VTEC, it just feels like its less than it really is.

[91kid]

What do you mean about that? VTEC actually shouldn't "hit"... the crossover was set high for the H22 so people would feel it and buy the car. A smooth VTEC transition is optimal. There is no transition whatsoever in iVTEC. Though I do have to admit... I enjoy the "hit" and the sound that comes with the H22's VTEC crossover. My Fit's iVTEC engine doesn't offer that bit of enjoyment.

woops sorry i meant Without the hit... i would love to have the smooth power minus the nitrous like feeling when the cam changes... I mean its cool but i think the motor would perform better as stated before if you can keep it on the cam. Vs. hitting the limit of the small cam for 1000-1500 rpms and then the vtec bring in more power..

[deevergote]

Setting the VTEC crossover on a stock H22 to about 4800 RPM seems to offer the most seamless transition, with the most useful application of power.

The kick sold cars, though. I enjoy the feeling of the crossover, even though I know that it's not making the most efficient power. That goes back to the purpose of the car... If changing that crossover to be seamless will get me .01 second improvement in a quater mile run, but eliminate the "kick" that I enjoy in everyday driving... then it's not worth it to me. Overall driving enjoyment, for whatever combination of reasons, is the goal for my car.