Vtec Vs. Non Vtec

[CB7 Sleeper]

FRM sleeves are weaker than stock non-FRM sleeves when boosting?

i think he is comparing to the f22s iron sleeves?

however with some low comp pistons i dont think an h22 would be too much of a pain for boost. i like the FRM sleeves.

[deevergote]

My point is that the FRM sleeves and the F22's iron sleeves are BOTH only good to a certain point for boost. A resleeve is necessary for high boost regardless.

[gloryaccordy]

FRM sleeves are weaker than stock non-FRM sleeves when boosting?

Ur very limited in piston choices. I guess it doesn't matter if u sleeve it

[CB7 Sleeper]

My point is that the FRM sleeves and the F22's iron sleeves are BOTH only good to a certain point for boost. A resleeve is necessary for high boost regardless.

true, so it really doesnt matter at all.

[deevergote]

Ur very limited in piston choices. I guess it doesn't matter if u sleeve it

Mahle Gold Series. They're decent... you don't really need a million choices. The Mahle pistons will probably hold up to more boost than the stock sleeves (in either engine)

[wed3k]

im not comparing a sbc to a honda. im saying that you dont need technology to make good numbers.

I want torque relative to hp. Not 200hp and nothing for torque. i want even numbers...ive driven a f22b and a built h22. down low, they feel the same as a f22. I just prefer torque because it is what makes better corner exits. If i wanted 150ft-lbs then Id rather just stick with a built f22 and run a h22 transmission. The transmission is what makes it fast. H22 swapped accords with f22 trannies run 15's.

Why would i compare 8 cylinder to 4? But i do plan on getting a 454 truck :o

you guys are starting to sound like honda-tech, start being more liberal to other ideas. Not everyone gets a honda for Vtec.

[CB7 Sleeper]

im not comparing a sbc to a honda. im saying that you dont need technology to make good numbers.

I want torque relative to hp. Not 200hp and nothing for torque. i want even numbers...ive driven a f22b and a built h22. down low, they feel the same as a f22. I just prefer torque because it is what makes better corner exits. If i wanted 150ft-lbs then Id rather just stick with a built f22 and run a h22 transmission. The transmission is what makes it fast. H22 swapped accords with f22 trannies run 15's.

Why would i compare 8 cylinder to 4? But i do plan on getting a 454 truck :o

you guys are starting to sound like honda-tech, start being more liberal to other ideas. Not everyone gets a honda for Vtec.

i got a 454 GMC. but its not faster than my F22a

those trucks do put down some serious torque.

oh, and sorry for misunderstanding you.

[wed3k]

i got a 454 GMC. but its not faster than my F22a

those trucks do put down some serious torque.

oh, and sorry for misunderstanding you.

well you see, my friend just got a F250 with a 428 cobra jet and i hear those things make 400 stock. So some how and some way im going to make it faster

[CB7 Sleeper]

454 EFI in mine makes 255 hp and 405lb-ft

[CB7 Sleeper]

lol okay no more off topic posts from me...well, after this one.

[owequitit]

you can make power without vtec, look at a small block chevy. the 190hp can easily be doubled to 400 with head work, cam, more compression and a good cfm carb(s).

A F22 can get well over 220hp with way more compression, huge cam, head work and a really good tune.

Now, do you see h22's doubling thier hp? granted, it is an already high output from the factory but you also get that from what you pay for the motor. f22's are similiar to SBC, they were massively produced and cheap to acquire.

h22's have a lot more technology and more expensive. It's pretty much whatever you want it to be.

Ive driven vtec and i just dislike waiting for the hp to kick in, I way prefer the torque.

Your entire arguement is invalid.

1) You are trying to justify a non-VTEC Honda by pointing to an engine that is usually 3x the size with a VE in the 50's. Not hard to get more power. Having said that, on a CID per CID basis, they STILL fall short, even AFTER being built. Apples to Oranges. SBC's had nothing to do with this conversation, nor will they ever. It is a moot point. Also, if you look at an SBC, you would notice that in fact, the H22 has a much broader torque curve as it has a higher % of peak torque at a lower RPM, and maintains it to a MUCH higher RPM. The only reason the SBC's don't feel flat on the bottom is because they are so big. Take nearly ANY other equivalent OHC V8 with VVT and other similar technologies to Honda's VTEC or i-VTEC engines, and the SBC starts to rapidly fall short, especially as displacement gets more similar.

2) A stock H22 makes around 150HP if it is weak. We know that they will do at least 300WHP under ADVERSE conditions (2point6 almost ALWAYS tests his engines in temps of over 100*F). That isn't quite doubling, but it is damn close. There could be more in there, it is hard to say. At some point the disadvantages of the valve angle are going to come into play. Keep in mind too that in order to extract his HP, Bisi is using 2,000+ additional RPM's. Based on Scott's torque curve, if he could get the engine to maintain torque for a similar amount of time, he would be making significantly more HP. But, he chooses to keep it near 8,000 for reliability reasons. That 1,000-2,000 RPM's makes a big difference. IIRC, Bisi even ran his Castrol engine to very near 9K RPM.

3) Nobody here is denying that an F22 can make power. However. Let's see your 300-400WHP F22 idle smoothly and be unobtrusively streetable. Scott has just started to get into idle lope at the 300HP mark and litterally the physical limits of valve lift on the H22, and I can tell you from personal experience that at the ~250WHP mark, you wouldn't have knownhis engine from a stock H22 in terms of idle quality or how it drove around in traffic. With an NA 250WHP F22, you will.

Having spoken extensively with Hondafan about his build, who has also spoken extensively with Scott, he admits flat out, right up front that his engine is NOT as streetable as an equivalent H22. It isn't impossible to drive on the street, but it is nowhere near as tractable, and Cisco currently has a pretty similar setup to what Scott had at roughly the same HP mark in terms of no ITB's, good header, streetable tune, somewhat similar compression etc.

Overall, VTEC becomes heavily mitigated in an engine that is going to spend its time at high RPM's (Bisi's drag car for example), but it really shines in dual duty engines, which is why Honda adopted the technology in the first place. It allowed them streetability, durability, driveability, efficiency, and emmissions performance, all without having to compromise as much on total power, and thus, area under the curve.

Like I said, at some point, the valve angle on older VTEC engines becomes a liability, because at some point you run out of ability to add valve lift. Whereas my understanding is that the H22 is about tapped out with the Skunk 2 Pro Stage 3 (.500" lift), Bisi has said that he is running well in excess of 1" lift, and longer duration than you could on an H22 because the valves would make hot nasty love to each other, which is bad. At high engine speeds especially, that is a liability compared to the F22. The slightly less efficient CC doesn't help either.

It is also hard to compare Bisi to another build completely fairly, because Bisi is by training an engineer, whereas a lot of others are not. He has also had to leverage some pretty trick newer technology which is not necessarily common on competing builds, such as stand off fuel injection, and coil on plug ignition.

[owequitit]

well you see, my friend just got a F250 with a 428 cobra jet and i hear those things make 400 stock. So some how and some way im going to make it faster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g75YwO_Wdzo

Having driven a 69 Mach 1 Cobrajet, I can say it is powerful, but it sure didn't feel that powerful. It may have needed some tuning up, but still.

Very badass car still. You just have to be careful from that era, because it was the era of SAE gross HP, and often, by the time all accessories, exhaust and intake plumbing was mounted, as well as a "stock" tune, the numbers often dropped to a much lower reality, which is why SAE Net was phased in in the early 1970's. That also explains much of the HUGE drop in power from ~1970-1972.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

For instance, you will notice, if you read the comments, that this engine is not running all accessories that would have made it representative of MOST Cobrajets as installed from the factory. Such small details can have a HUGE impact on output.

[wed3k]

you guys keep argueing, ive given up now that scott's chimed in. all i heard was, "blah blah blah engineering and valve angles."

[owequitit]

Just take a look Bisi's f22a, he revs as high as 12k rpm, the reason h22 has higher rpm is because of the high compression pistons (stock) F22ax are low thats why we can't rev that high.
And h22's ain't all that neither, and seriously this thread sounds like honda-tech.

If you put an h22 or h23 tranny in an f22ax it increases accel, and YOU do need torque for power, no torque no HP, no HP no torque.

Its just common sense on what people like and don't like on there Honda's.

Just my $0.02....

If I were you, I would NOT drop my $.02 in.

You are only serving to further illustrate your stupidity. Frankly, the ONLY one making this thread sound like Honda-Tech is YOU, because you are coming in here with your unfounded, ignorant, fan boy/hater comments and perpetually detracting from what is primarily an intelligent debate on a system. YOUR posts are more like the average Honda-Tech post, as opposed to the other posts in the thread.

Also, if you took the time to learn, instead of running your mouth, you would quickly learn that HP is ALWAYS dependent on torque. But torque is only an instantaneous measurement of force, while HP is actually a measurement of work done over time, and is thus what we are actually interested in, if we want to measure a machine's output.

[owequitit]

you guys keep argueing, ive given up now that scott's chimed in. all i heard was, "blah blah blah engineering and valve angles."

Too bad. You probably could have learned something. Oh well. Nothing new.