Vtec Vs. Non Vtec

[91kid]

Yes i agree with you but Im not necassarily worried about the power but i would like my vtec to hit lower anyway and if thats more efficiant then thats cool.. although the kick in is fun haha =)

now how would you go about setting the point?

[deevergote]

It's easily adjustable in a tunable ECU, like my P28. Crome and Uberdata (and any other program) have it as an option. You can also get a VTEC controller, like the ones made by Apexi. I consider them to be a waste of money, but they do the trick.

[91kid]

cool when i finally do my vtec i think ill set it lower then 5500 but not quite at 4800 so theres a little kick in the pants =)


lots of good info on here guys thanks

[CB7 Sleeper]

It's easily adjustable in a tunable ECU, like my P28. Crome and Uberdata (and any other program) have it as an option. You can also get a VTEC controller, like the ones made by Apexi. I consider them to be a waste of money, but they do the trick.

I agree, the VTEC controllers are a waste of money unless you insist on changing it often. Tuning the ECU is probably the best route in my opinion. I had a VTEC controller in my H22a swapped coupe. (Came with the car when I bought it) I wouldn't recommend spending the money on it.

[jdm92_accorn]

I have a feeling that most of the people who say the H22 has no torque, think that because it just make so much MORE power up-top, making the bottom end *feel* weak, when in reality it isn't. It's all relative.

actually the lack of torque that us f22 owners speak of is because of the f22's longer stroke. that's why im more of a fan of the h23 vtec because it has the low end kick of the f22 and the high end pull of the h22 and they're like 1300 for the swap, you put that behind and h23 tranny with an lsd and a few bolt-on and that would be monster, esp made like 212whp and 174wtq with just bolt-ons and a tune. itb's, cams, a lil head work and maybe the bisimoto header when it comes out and who knows. but vtec is what differs that engine from strictly track or dd. without vtec you could not have a 250-300whp naturally aspirated honda that can idle at 900rpms and be driven on a every day basis.

[CB7 Sleeper]

actually the lack of torque that us f22 owners speak of is because of the f22's longer stroke. that's why im more of a fan of the h23 vtec because it has the low end kick of the f22 and the high end pull of the h22 and they're like 1300 for the swap, you put that behind and h23 tranny with an and a few bolt-on and that would be monster, esp made like 212whp and 174wtq with just bolt-ons and a tune. itb's, cams, a lil head work and maybe the bisimoto header when it comes out and who knows. but vtec is what differs that engine from strictly track or dd. without vtec you could not have a 250-300whp naturally aspirated honda that can idle at 900rpms and be driven on a every day basis.

Also true, making that much power would not allow you to drive the car on a regular basis. the idle would be extremely unbearable. I would imagine it would be even worse with a SOHC like the F22a

[jdm92_accorn]

lol, idk ask hondafan81, cisco has the lvl 3 bisi camshaft. but another example of vtec is with the j series v6, its only sohc but they are making 290hp out of a 3.5 liter and still managing almost 30mpg all because of vtec. variable valve timing in any form in all forms has helped small discplacement engines reign supreme in the consumer market. just imagine if honda ever wanted to compete in the full size v8 car or truck segment. we're talking a 400hp+ and probably 25mpg+ easily.

[deevergote]

I wish Honda would make a V8. And more RWD options... They do small FWD very well, though... and in this economy, it'd be silly to risk developing unfamiliar technology (their V10 supercar NSX replacement was axed for that very reason)

Cisco said that his White car is NOT a daily driver by any means. It's probably obnoxious at low RPM, and driving around in the powerband would probably get tiresome very quickly.

[CB7 Sleeper]

I wish Honda would make a V8. And more RWD options... They do small FWD very well, though... and in this economy, it'd be silly to risk developing unfamiliar technology (their V10 supercar NSX replacement was axed for that very reason)

Cisco said that his White car is NOT a daily driver by any means. It's probably obnoxious at low RPM, and driving around in the powerband would probably get tiresome very quickly.

lol, Cisco and I were talking on the phone about a week ago about his "NASTY" cam he has in the white project right now. he told me they dont even sell it on the shelves lol.

He is going to go with a milder cam though, he said quote, "the cam in it right now is just TOO " lol. He should have it at our next meet and he and I are going to see who has the faster Non VTEC My F20a DOHC vs his F22a SOHC.

Of course, I'll be spraying. hehehe

Well, since Cisco is helping with the motor build and the bottle installation, and he still doesn't seem to be so intimidated so...I'm a little worried. lol

[deevergote]

When Cisco's setup is running properly, I fully expect him to be making upwards of 250whp. I may be optimistic... but he has done a LOT of stuff to that motor, and he doesn't ever do anything without making sure it's the best step for his overall goal.

2point6 was roasting Z06s with his 250whp NA H22... so as long as Cisco has a decent powerband, we're looking at a CB7 in the high 12s, I'm sure.

[CB7 Sleeper]

When Cisco's setup is running properly, I fully expect him to be making upwards of 250whp. I may be optimistic... but he has done a LOT of stuff to that motor, and he doesn't ever do anything without making sure it's the best step for his overall goal.

2point6 was roasting Z06s with his 250whp NA H22... so as long as Cisco has a decent powerband, we're looking at a CB7 in the high 12s, I'm sure.

yea, he will be able to rip on me. he was making 190 some whp on a mustang dyno last time he dyno'd it. so im sure he'll be pushing 250 whp. i am glad hes the one helping me with my build, the guy is very intelligent. i like having a guy like him giving his opinion and putting his hands on my motor, i trust him greatly. im looking to run 13s after im all done. i am no where close to being as dedicated as cisco. after all, mine IS my daily driver. lol.

[deevergote]

If you can run 13s in a daily driven 3000lb NA car... that's respectable.

And yeah, Cisco is a hell of a guy. I met him back in 2003 on another site, and I think he came here on my recommendation. At the time, all he did was maintain his parents' CBs. He knew a lot, but only in terms of replacing, repairing, and maintaining. I've watched him take that knowledge to turn himself into one of the most admired tuners on this site. He still has plenty to learn, of course, but he's far beyond the average CB7tuner at this point!

[owequitit]

Hmmm, ok.....then tell me this, how the hell do you know that Honda wanted people to know what "vtec" really was for? Did they really tell you? And the topic of this forum was "vtec vs non-vtec" not "VTEC and its advantages over non-VTEC"

H22 without that "vtec" would be as slow as a stock f22ax.
Vtec has always been for economy use (except certain models)
You don't need vtec to make power, Im with wed3k, this thread has gone off to far, and the OP said "what we prefer" not what the advantages and disadvantages were....nor that we need to argue our intellagance over a "Honda guru".

To each his own.
And you sir, are making people get pissed off because h22 are the shit and you know why h22 are the shit, and were the fuck did you get that I'am a fan boy/hater???
And you don't need to offend no one and argue with them and "running your mouth".

Ah, but there is the difference. I am not "running my mouth." I am actually saying stuff.

And had all the non-VTEC leg humpers not jumped all over my ass, I was getting ready to discuss the merits of non-vtec and where the average person might find them more desireable. But we can't have an intelligent conversation around here, can we?

P.S. The changeover thing has been a known thing from Honda for quite some time. I won't bother to bore you with the actual reputable material I have read though.

Also, what is a logical reason other than that mentioned for the delay in changeover?

I think all that Wes was saying was that he prefers the earlier torque delivery of a non-VTEC motor vs the waiting sensation of a stock VTEC motor. On a relatively uncorked F22A torque comes on about 2.5-3K, and can stay all the way to fuel cut if you have the right mods; and you don't even need a tune for that. With an I/H/E H22A, or any DOHC VTEC motor, it seems like you're waiting, waiting, waiting... at least those are my experiences.

The problem is that that doesn't seem to pencil out on the dyno. The H22 is in fact making 90+% of its peak torque from about 2,000RPM to well over 6,000RPM (I believe the torque peak is actually ~6800). It FEELS like less because compared to what you get at 5200-5500, it IS less. Even though the engine is making most of its torque the whole time, it FEELS much stronger in the top end, because that torque is translating directly into more HP which is ultimately what moves the car.

In contrast, not only is a stock F22 making LESS torque total, but it is making a smaller % at that same point. It has a more arced curve to it, so to speak. The F22 does well in the midrage, coincidentally where a stock tuned H22 is hitting the hole. If an H22 were PROPERLY programmed from the factory, there would be no waiting, it would just pull harder straight through.

The thread is about personal preference. Maybe Wes doesn't care about 'streetability' as he won't be doing builds for the street. He's well within his right. I personally prefer the drop in and go easiness of something like an H22A vs a full out build, even though to me tapping the potential of an F22A is a much more interesting prospect. You can't argue that, Scott

As I recall, nobody ever said he wasn't. So who is arguing? It sure as fuck isn't me (funny how when people argue with ME, it is still ends up being my fault). I really don't give a shit either way. I had great success and a ton of fun with my F22, and I have had a lot of fun with my H22. Discussing the relative merits and demerits of each technology has nothing to do with what I prefer, or think is better. In fact, not once in this thread have I EVER stated an opinion. I have stated FACTS about the merits of VTEC AND the drawbacks. Nothing more.

I haven't said shit about personal preference.

you would spend more because you would have to buy the vtec motor to put in, therefore, less money for mods. if you put the amount of money into an f22a that you would use to do an h22a swap, you could probably have a really decent turbo setup that would far surpass the power of the h22a. just my .02. something to think about

shoot, you couldve picked up the bisi header for 6 hundos and already been halfway there, if you prefer N/A

With H22's fairly easy to find at $500, that is barely going to cover exhaust mods.

here's the thing though, an h22 at bare minimum is an h22a1 which to the wheels is roughly 154whp and thats with 10.5:1's, factory 4/2/1 header, larger dual plane intake manifold with a 62mm throttle body, performance oriented ecu, larger intake piping, closer ratio transmission, vtec side has a massive camshaft in all perspective. and the prelude has 2.25" exhaust piping factory. sooo lets even things up a lil. give the f22 just the 10.5:1's, the h23 intake manifold and tb, prelude pipe and airbox, f22a4 header, p12 ecu, 92-96 prelude exhaust and the f22a6 camshaft and an h22 tranny. hey guess what that would be about 155whp and thats with a smaller camshaft, smaller valves, NO VTEC and more torque. i made 176whp and 162wtq for about $1100. thats modded h22 numbers. oh except more torque yet again without vtec and i can idle at 800rpms and i get 30mpg in town and 36mpg on the highway.

1) H22A1 is only 10:1, so it is just slightly more than 1 point higher. The JDM engines are 10.6:1, but they also make noticeably more torque in the bottom end.

2) The F22 also came with a "factory header" in most versions. The H22 TB is 62MM tapering to 60MM. Also, your WHP estimates from those mods are woefully optimistic. I had nearly that exact setup (a little more aggressive actually) and it wasn't that close to a stock H22. I had a DC Sports header, high flow cat, intake, larger than Prelude exhaust, A6 cam, F22A6 IM with H series plenum, and PT6 ECU. The engine was also incredibly healthy. There was certainly much more power over stock, and it went a long way toward bridging the gap, but it wasn't at H22 levels.

Also, even with an H22A1, if it is healthy, it is closer to 160-165WHP. At 154, I would expect other mechanical/tuning issues.

The other thing to consider is that an H22 suffers from many of the same factory bottlenecks as the F22, so attacking those areas will open it up as well, not to mention that compared to the F22, the H22 has a HORRIBLE stock tune, so while they are both stock, they aren't really equal.

no what people fail to realize is VTEC is benefitial because it allows you to have a large camshaft profile for high end power AND a small camshaft profile for low end response. i personally like the f22a, but thats just my thing. if you want an engine to look at look at the h23vtec.it has tons of low end torque and high end hp, a powerband from 2k to 8k. that is only possible with vtec. i just want people to know the h22 is not better than the f22. besides this is not about the f22 vs the h22 its vtec vs non-vtec. simple decision vtec because you can have your cake and eat it too.

The problem in this thread so far, which actually has done a good job of not being a F22 vs H22 thread, is that as soon as you speak of the advantages of VTEC, you get the trolls crawling out of the woodwork.

I have a feeling that most of the people who say the H22 has no torque, think that because it just make so much MORE power up-top, making the bottom end *feel* weak, when in reality it isn't. It's all relative.

This is supported by dyno plots for the most part. The VTC in i-VTEC helps this feeling tremendously BTW.

actually the lack of torque that us f22 owners speak of is because of the f22's longer stroke. that's why im more of a fan of the h23 vtec because it has the low end kick of the f22 and the high end pull of the h22 and they're like 1300 for the swap, you put that behind and h23 tranny with an lsd and a few bolt-on and that would be monster, esp made like 212whp and 174wtq with just bolt-ons and a tune. itb's, cams, a lil head work and maybe the bisimoto header when it comes out and who knows. but vtec is what differs that engine from strictly track or dd. without vtec you could not have a 250-300whp naturally aspirated honda that can idle at 900rpms and be driven on a every day basis.

H22's have come down a bunch in price, and are far more common. Also, you are correct about the advantages of the longer stroke, but keep in mind that the whole reason for the shortened stroke on the H22 is durability up top. While you can get revs out of an F22/H23 by optimizing everything, the lifespan will ultimately be shorter than if you did that with an H22 stroke, just by virtue of the piston speeds, etc. So, for every advantage, there is a disadvantage.

[JPsAccordSE]

Has this been stickied yet? There is alot of good info that is being provided.

As for my opinion, I absolutely adore VTEC. I love having the 'economical' side of the engine that allows you to putt around town with a fair amount of power, while idling smoothly at 700 RPMs and providing decent gas mileage all at the same time. Then when you decide that you want to do some spirited driving, you can go out, cross over into VTEC, and have at it.

I also love the feel of that 'kick' that occurs when the engine changes over to the bigger cam profiles. Yes, I know it's not all that great for performance, but I kinda feel like it's saying, 'Ding! Your power has arrived! Enjoy!'

Now, as everyone else has said, when it comes to building an engine, you have to ask yourself 'what is the environment this engine will be living in?' If the car is your daily driver, or your only car, VTEC is a very nice thing to have. Like I, and everyone else has said, it gives you the best of both worlds. However, if driveability isn't an issue, then go crazy with a non-VTEC motor (or a VTEC motor). Because in the end, you could make amazing amounts of power with either set-up, but the driveability of the non-VTEC motor will get worse alot quicker than the VTEC motor.

One last point, to the people who said they hate waiting for VTEC to crossover, you know there is something you can do to solve that! What you do is take your left foot, push down on the pedal to the left, and change down a gear. Works wonders, lol. And if your gonna say you hate waiting for it to come in first gear, then push the accelerator down more, because VTEC should come quick enough!

(Now a disclaimer. It may seem that I am defending VTEC motors, and I am. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with regular motors, it's just that I've been driving a car with it for 5 months, and before that I waited a year to get this car.

And if none of this makes sense, I'm sorry. I'm falling asleep )

[CB7 Sleeper]

Sticky?

Hmmm, I bet this would be a good sticky wouldn't it. This thread has some really good deep discussion in it, and the controversy just keeps it going.

Maybe Deev could take it into consideration. Well, I suppose if it did get stickied I would have to get rid of a few nonsense posts to keep it consistent, or maybe not just to keep it original.