Negative camber good or not?

[axle]

Lot's of misinformation here, a few guys know whats up though.

First off I need to specify that I'm talking about a normal range of camber you would get from lowering the car a reasonable amount, not dumped cars, or cars modified to have a massive amount of negative camber for "looks".

-1° to -3° camber is not really something you need to worry about. What you DO need to worry about is that shitty alignment place you were going to bring your car to. When running negative camber an "in the green" alignment by Joe-blow at Sears is no longer acceptable.

You are spending hundreds on "performance" suspension, but willing to have your car aligned at places concerned mainly about having moms minivan drive straight? jeezus-h-priorities

Negative camber doesn't cause any extreme wear, make the car handle worse/weird, or any of that other stuff you heard about by uninformed individuals. What it does do it help the outside tire maintain better contact with the road while cornering.

When you have the car aligned, it has to be done right and the toe needs to be set to a higher standard than grandma's Cadillac. Specifically, toe needs to be set much closer to 0° both sides than with a stock suspension. Your alignment guy should also have you sitting in the driver seat or have your equivalent weight in the seat when doing the alignment, ever seen them do that at Sears? Hell no. The heavier guy you are the more important this becomes, if you are a straight up fatty/beast 230+ this is really important.

Buying camber kits because you think you need to hit 0° camber is essentially admitting your alignment guy sucks. Why not save that money and spend it on a better guy, keep the stock parts reliability, and come out of it with a better handling car?

/end rant

I would have to agree with most of this here. Most people that think they have a camber problem it turns out to be a toe issue. Getting an alignment you do need to know a little more background on who is doing it. There is a big reason why at least up here in Connecticut big companies will not even touch a lowered car for the most part.

[deevergote]

I took my car to Firestone for an alignment after installing my TASauto front camber kit. Never had a camber kit in the rear. I was dropped on Koni Yellows and H&R Race springs. The first Firestone (the one that had the low-profile rack that all the Corvette guys go there for) refused me because the car was modified. I went to another, and just didn't tell them. They did the alignment.
A few weeks later, my rear tires were cupping.

So yes... the person that does your alignment is just as important as the parts you use. Low quality will most likely result in an expensive or dangerous outcome.

[MustardCat]

Because you will still look like a jackass with the front wheels bowed out and not at all matching whats going on in the back...

I don't know about the rest of you guys but I like my car looking right. If that means getting a camber kit to make shit look good then thats what I'm going to do.

-1° to -3° is hardly noticeable, you probably wouldn't even notice it unless it was pointed out.

I took my car to Firestone for an alignment after installing my TASauto front camber kit. Never had a camber kit in the rear. I was dropped on Koni Yellows and H&R Race springs. The first Firestone (the one that had the low-profile rack that all the Corvette guys go there for) refused me because the car was modified. I went to another, and just didn't tell them. They did the alignment.
A few weeks later, my rear tires were cupping.

So yes... the person that does your alignment is just as important as the parts you use. Low quality will most likely result in an expensive or dangerous outcome.

This is a good example. If you had a rear camber kit and set it at 0°, the alignment still would have been wrong, but the poor wear pattern would have been spread across more of the tire and less noticeable. Camber kits are just band-aids for poorly set toe.

[deevergote]

I wouldn't say that. Camber and toe are two completely different angles. Having either one poorly set will cause tire wear, and both will compound the damage.

[MustardCat]

I wouldn't say that. Camber and toe are two completely different angles. Having either one poorly set will cause tire wear, and both will compound the damage.

The natural negative camber you get from a reasonable drop will barely have an effect over the course of the tires life... if the toe is set correctly. Any excessive wear you have attributed to camber was most likely actually caused by toe.

Here is a tire at the end of it's life that was driven with several degrees negative camber:

As you can see the difference between the inside and outside is almost negligible.

[TheProfessional]

In regards to the main question..

It's in my own opinion and firm belief that in the car isn't going to be tracked, or consistently put into a competitive circuit or endurance situation that cambering of any kind is absolutely uncalled for.

I also dislike the "Cambering" trend used to tuck wheels, or "Stancing", it's all ridiculous and impractical and kills a cars suspension dynamic for fashion purposes.

However, Negative cambering, in performance application DOES have positive effects ONLY made clear in the circumstances of track application or situational circumstances where that kind of driving implies. Their marginal, but actual advantages over cars not running the same set up.

1 - Tires build up hear around the inners rather then outside, makes them predictable, as tires break traction when they become excessively hot, a tire that's hotter along the insides, when breaking ill have cooler tire surface as you travel along to the outside = It loses grip more gradually and predictably.

2 - The overall turn in response of those cambered wheels become sharper. Although, you do lose a stable feel in a straight line (car also loses it's tendency to track in a straight line as well).

3 - This could be and couldn't be seen as an advantage but the tire wears out predictably to, we are all familiar with camber wear, the in most cases it happens on the outer (bad tie rods) but through cambering you can focus he contact patches onto the inner sidewall of the tire and that's where it'll traditionally wear out more, still, giving you the middle and outside tire area to work with once it has worn down.

Both of these advantages occur when it's done WITHIN REASON, as with anything excessive camber can backfire on you, I myself have experimented and found the most comfortable zone is about a -1 degree upfront and 1 1/2 outback gives me the dynamic i'm looking for with the suspension set up i'm running.


Still, if you aren't tracking...shouldn't be doing it.

[H311RA151N]

Because you will still look like a jackass with the front wheels bowed out and not at all matching whats going on in the back...

I don't know about the rest of you guys but I like my car looking right. If that means getting a camber kit to make shit look good then thats what I'm going to do.

This is exactly how I am. You always have people that are trying to tell you that using a camber kit to get your camber around -.75* (or whatever you want it) is unnecessary and it’s either toe or the alignment guy or "something else" that’s making your tires wear like shit.

My reasoning is I just don’t like the look of negative camber or the effects of negative camber no matter how big or small. And I pass the info on to others to help them make an informed decision.

-1° to -3° is hardly noticeable, you probably wouldn't even notice it unless it was pointed out.


This is a good example. If you had a rear camber kit and set it at 0°, the alignment still would have been wrong, but the poor wear pattern would have been spread across more of the tire and less noticeable. Camber kits are just band-aids for poorly set toe.

Toe is the least blamed and the most responsible for excessive tire wear when you are lowered. I think everyone gets that. It’s been discussed over and over again.

Excessive negative camber is once the camber exceeds the alignment specs. When the alignment specs say that X amount of camber is out of spec then it’s simply going to have negative repercussions. That’s not so say it won’t have positive ones as well. But just because it has positive effects doesn’t mean the negative effects are irrelevant. That’s up to each individual to decide for them self. Cutting off your arm will make you weigh less, but there is a negative side to that too that some people might find more important. As far as negative camber being good for handling, that is true but not many people on here track their CBs or will ever push their car to the limits to where negative camber will be necessary. That’s where I step in and advise people of the negative effects of camber since 99% of the time the positive effects are the ones that people don’t need or care about. But I just advise them as to the effects, the choice is theirs and if a few hundred miles or a few thousand miles in some cases isn’t important to someone then a camber kit isn’t needed.


-1.0* of camber is going to wear faster than -.75* of camber. Very little but it’s still common knowledge. So -3* or -4* will wear the tires even more. But if that is acceptable to someone then it’s their deal and it’s ok. How much depends on a lot but fact is still fact.
Going down the road like this: \----/ is going to wear tires faster even if it is just ever so slightly. Maybe with -1.5* of camber you will only lose 500 miles off a set of tires. If that’s important to someone or not then that’s up to them to decide.


I don’t think anyone was saying they want their camber at 0 so I don’t know where that came from. The alignments shops don’t even attempt to set the camber at 0. They know a little camber is ok and can be helpfull. A happy medium is important. And no one here was saying you need absolutely no camber.

I can see -2.5 camber and so can a lot of other people. So that too is a matter of preference. If they don’t like the way it looks that’s up to them.

Camber is entirely preference visually and economically.

[MustardCat]

I guess I'm coming from a more practical/realistic/$$$ mindset:

So you lower your car some, and say it ends up with -1.5° camber all around. Knowing that this is barely noticeable, doesn't really effect tire wear, and improves grip in the corners... why even buy a camber kit when all you need is a proper alignment? That is literally money wasted on an aftermarket part you don't need. There has got to be something better that money could be used for.

[P5ylance]

I guess I'm coming from a more practical/realistic/$$$ mindset:

So you lower your car some, and say it ends up with -1.5° camber all around. Knowing that this is barely noticeable, doesn't really effect tire wear, and improves grip in the corners... why even buy a camber kit when all you need is a proper alignment? That is literally money wasted on an aftermarket part you don't need. There has got to be something better that money could be used for.

yup, then you wouldn't absolutely need the part at all. however, to know that you have the option of adjusting as necessary is never a bad thing. front camber kits aren't too expensive, so it's not asking too much, especially for peace of mind that if something does happen where you need to adjust, you can.

chances are, you may eventually fall into the looks crowd (because a sleek car does look damn good), and the height that nets you a -1.5 camber may not be the height you wanna stay at. If you do go down this bittersweet path, then you'll want that camber kit to get the best of both worlds, acceptable camber and your desired ride height.

If you want "a finger gap" between your car and your wheels... you'll want that camber kit to stay under -2.0 at least, in my experience.

[H311RA151N]

I guess I'm coming from a more practical/realistic/$$$ mindset:

So you lower your car some, and say it ends up with -1.5° camber all around. Knowing that this is barely noticeable, doesn't really effect tire wear, and improves grip in the corners... why even buy a camber kit when all you need is a proper alignment? That is literally money wasted on an aftermarket part you don't need. There has got to be something better that money could be used for.

The improved handling capability will be even less than the tire wear at -1.5*

Practicality is lowering the car and correcting the negative camber that lowering it created.

Realistically a good quality camber kit front and rear will run $225 +/- you get new rear upper control arms, new front upper control arm bushings and adjustability for in the future if you decide to go lower (which happens a lot on here).

Why not get a proper alignment when you pay anywhere from $60-$100 for a four wheel alignment by having them correct the camber while they are at it for no extra labor cost?

It’s not a waste to buy something that does what it’s designed to do. And if someone chooses to go the extra mile to make something as right as can be made why should others frown upon that? Doing things the right way and completely from start to finish should be encouraged no matter what the circumstance.

Using a quality camber kit under any circumstance will not cause harm in any way. Period. On the other hand there are instances when not using a camber kit can be destructive and even dangerous. I hardly consider that a waste.

[TheProfessional]

I guess I'm coming from a more practical/realistic/$$$ mindset:

So you lower your car some, and say it ends up with -1.5° camber all around. Knowing that this is barely noticeable, doesn't really effect tire wear, and improves grip in the corners... why even buy a camber kit when all you need is a proper alignment? That is literally money wasted on an aftermarket part you don't need. There has got to be something better that money could be used for.

You have to also ask yourself the question is that -1.5 being maintained by stock or aftermarket (higher quality and performace) bushings. Also that -1.5 number is going to be subject to change while you're driving, NATURALLY the suspension will travel and go through increases in negative camber during your day to day driving, so -1.5 can go as high as 2.5 or even 3, i wouldn't want that kind of travel, if Bushings can mitigate or decrease the travel of that number higher, then the camber kit IS the best way to go about it.

You also have to understand that dropping the car, incorrectly or more so doing it without getting the accomidating hardware ALSO increases the amount of Flex or travel in your suspension..

Dropping On Aftermarket Springs + Stock Strut Valving = Foolish, the cars struts cannot and will not accomidate the new spring rates and how they handle load.

Dropping on Aftermarket Springs + Performance Strut Valving = Proper, you correctly accomidate the change in one aspect of your suspension with another, now with the lower center of gravity you can tune out suspension travel and keep your In-Motion numbers (Camber, toe, ect) in check.


I still stand by my proper statement, take your wheel and tire package, suspension all into consideration before doing anything, and unless ur tracking, or really intend on making use of the performance gains, Don't camber at all.

[gloryaccordy]

I kind of agree. If you are going low enough that stock camber will be ~-3 or more, you are probably too low. You will be operating well outside the stock camber curve, have limited travel and probably have weird toe issues as well.

My best handling CB was maybe 1.5" lower than stock, no camber kit. I think camber might have been -1 to -1.5 all around.

[oni_cb7]

Just to add to this...

Driving on a track, or as if you are on a track on public roads, will increase wear on the tires because of the type of driving. If you simply drive from point a to point b without taking turns like you need to hit the apex and test the limit of your cars handling, then your tires will last a lot longer. The stress put on the tires will dictate how long they will last, along with the specs of the suspension. If you run -3 degrees of camber and drive like a grandma, then you'll be getting decent mileage on the tires; but if you think you are in initial d, then you'll be changing tires a lot more often.

[Cb_JoeyG]

Probably should even question getting a set of these then


SPC Extreme Camber Kits

[MustardCat]

Those are actually the worst type of kits to get, because when you adjust the camber more positive you are actually just increasing the length of the upper arm. This is like a double whammy in terms of grip, less static camber and the longer upper arm decreases the amount of camber gain you will get under compression.

Using longer bolts and washers in the rear for example would be better because at least the arm is staying the same length.